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The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

scientificamerican.com

71–80 of 127 posts

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#71

The antivax movement is ridiculous and hopefully the necessity of covid vaccinations will destroy it as should have happened years ago. Similarly, the evidence for climate change is pretty much undeniable now and I can only assume that those pretending it doesn't exist are not honest actors. But the lockdown scepticism I can kind of understand as it is more of a political issue - the cost/benefit of lockdown and depe…

How is china shows lockdown can work ?

They may simply reacting and just try to do 'something'.

By that logic sweeden, florida, south dakota, shows lockdown doesn't make significant difference.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#72
post #27

This conflates "official positions of authorities" with "science". It's like a modern religion, with three tenets: (1) science made everything around us (iPhones and airplanes!) (2) we speak for science (3) therefore you must believe our conclusions. But in fact, that's the opposite of a proper scientific attitude, which always admits doubt, and believes experiment over authority. As for why authorities are increasin…

If it's real science, you would expect advice to change as more data comes in, so perhaps you should find a better example.

Can you share an example of real science where advice changed as more data come in?

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#73
post #4

It's odd that the author only traces the political aspect back to 2015, when climate change denial has been a political issue since the turn of the millennium: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_policy_of_the...

And things like creationism/resisting the teaching of evolution in schools goes back well before the turn of the century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_and_evolution_in_publ...

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#74
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-vax took a weird twist over the past decade. It used to be a hippie-liberal notion, heavily informed by being anti-corporate anti-big-pharma. But it became more mainstream and cross-party when endorsed by celebrities, and then cross-fertilized with the anti-science anti-government Republican party. I'm sure the crunchy-granola antivaxers are still out there, but they were a fringe group and remain a fringe group…

The vaccines were accelerated by spending money and the high prevalence of the infection, they weren't rushed. 4 months into widespread use they have been safe and have demonstrated high efficacy in real world use. The blood clotting with the AZ vaccine is an issue, but that risk is still a good trade-off for a big segment of the population.

I've tweaked my post slightly; I was referring to the perception of it being rushed for political reasons. It's clearly safe and pursued using proper scientific methods, but there was legitimate concern that the President would apply pressure to approve something prematurely. That would be very much in character -- as we saw when he applied pressure to change votes.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#75
"Antiscience is the rejection of mainstream scientific views and methods or their replacement with unproven or deliberately misleading theories, often for nefarious and political gains."

The problem with that definition is "mainstream" science is also full of unproven theories, often for nefarious and political gains. The only real difference between what they consider science vs antiscience is how mainstream the views are. That seems like a poor way to determine scientific credibility.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#76

I’ve been pro science all my life but heavy censorship on coronavirus made me change my mind, perhaps blame is on the censorers a bit, no? If it is truly science, why censor the ideas of others?

Exactly. It pissed me off to no end when at the beginning of the pandemic the health minister of my country mindlessly parroted WHO in their initial "masks do not help" stance. How can anyone treat what we are being told seriously when instead of telling us the truth (masks help, but please don't hoard them because we need them for first responders) they choose to lie in the simplest things.

Same thing with real numbers of people that suffer issues after receiving covid vaccines. The only countries I know of that are truthful in this is UK (their yellow card scheme) and USA(VAERS database). Anyone can see that in UK there were around 500 deaths that occurred shortly after vaccination (20 mln people vaccinated) and in US around 1000 last time I checked (for 60mln vaccinated). Anyone can search those databases and compare incidence of for example vascular issues, stroke, or anaphylaxis to their "natural" incidence in the population. However, in my country where we have 5mln people vaccinated half of people are fearing "death by vaccine" because "few cases of stroke" are linked to the vaccine. Coincidently there is no open database of issues. Clearly politicians think people are too stupid to be told the truth that the likelyhood of "death by vaccine" is extremely low as compared with "death by covid" in pretty much all age groups. Instead of presenting real numbers they claim "there is no risk" in taking the vaccine.

Additionally people stopped believing the bullshit they hear after hearing multiple "experts" telling us various versions of: "uv will kill covid so it'll end by the summer"(then brasil had huge outbreak), "children do not get ill", "children do not pass the disease to adults", "you can't get infected outside or if you keep 2 meters distance" "no need for masks at work if you can maintain 2m distance". Then a year later: "we're closing nurseries and schools because despite teachers being vaccinated we see high numbers of children spreading covid to their families" and "40% of covid transmission happens at workplaces despite adherence to measures put in place". One doesn't need to be a genius to understand those were lies of convenience and wishful thinking. I seriously hope politicians in charge will be brought to justice after this pandemic ends.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#77
post #27

This conflates "official positions of authorities" with "science". It's like a modern religion, with three tenets: (1) science made everything around us (iPhones and airplanes!) (2) we speak for science (3) therefore you must believe our conclusions. But in fact, that's the opposite of a proper scientific attitude, which always admits doubt, and believes experiment over authority. As for why authorities are increasin…

The mask thing was a Noble Lie to prevent PPE shortages: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/yes-experts-will-lie-to-yo... I agree that that erodes trust, but it was for "a reason".

At the time, it was pretty clear to me from the guidance given that:

1. The efficacy of masks for protecting against SARS-CoV-2 was unknown; 2. People in high risk professions will need to wear them as a precaution even if they might not be as effective as we would like, so the advise to the public was to not buy them for this reason

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#78
Fight me if you must, but I firmly believe that the scientific institutions are the reason that “antiscience” and “scientism” have been able to gain ground.

Faking data, using “appeal to experts” and intellectualism to pretend that what they say must be true simply by virtue of the fact they said it, stifling opposing voices, leaning in to sensationalism with misleading conclusions, laying down at the feet of funding sources, propping up the image of “scientists” even in the face of impossible-to-reproduce experiments and predatory journals with overwhelmingly clear agendas... I could go on and on.

Human ego and the need for money are challenging hurdles for experts on the unpopular fringes to be sure, but if everyone stuck to (or stood up now and reaffirmed) the basic tenets of science:

- Change a single variable and record the results in an unbiased way - The scale of knowing is from “Absolutely no clue” to “fairly sure we’re not wrong”, and there is certainly never a “we’re absolutely sure we’re right”

I think it could go a long way towards rebuilding the public trust in the data from scientific studies, or at the very least give people the space to say “Yes the previous data was flawed, but we redid the experiments from scratch and the results are even more concerning.” without getting booed off the stage.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#79

Stopped reading at "a key feature of the political right" - the political left has adopted many anti-scientific ideas, too (if you want an example, take gender ideology and critical race theory, or belief that socialism works). People rightfully reject publications that write nonsense like that. If such a publication calls itself "science something something", or worse, has a longstanding reputation for representing…

I’m surprised that Sci Am published this. The hyper partisan language immediately caused me to doubt the veracity of the claims the author makes. And that’s an understatement. Sci Am used to be a quality magazine. No more.

So we can add scientific American to the pile of things that used to do journalism.
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