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The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

scientificamerican.com

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Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#41

Post by jfengel »

pjmorris wrote: post #5
EamonnMR wrote: post #4

It's odd that the author only traces the political aspect back to 2015, when climate change denial has been a political issue since the turn of the millennium: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_policy_of_the...

And I'd heard of the anti-vaxx movement in the mid-90's.

Anti-vax took a weird twist over the past decade. It used to be a hippie-liberal notion, heavily informed by being anti-corporate anti-big-pharma. But it became more mainstream and cross-party when endorsed by celebrities, and then cross-fertilized with the anti-science anti-government Republican party.

I'm sure the crunchy-granola antivaxers are still out there, but they were a fringe group and remain a fringe group. But for the GOP it's mainstream.

COVID's a little different from general anti-vax, being driven by a hoax narrative from the President combined with the perception of rushing a vaccine through (with the intention of having it be an October surprise for the election). That makes everybody nervous, on all sides of the spectrum.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#42

Post by eric_b »

Eh, the political left is just as guilty of abusing "science" for its own agenda. If you look at what peer reviewed articles in medical journals say about COVID, and then you look at the "pro-science" left-leaning-media coverage - you'll see two entirely different things. The political left picks and chooses the findings it likes to fit the narrative, and exaggerates them for effect.

In the United States, if you live in a democrat controlled area the only way your kids were going to school in-person during COVID was private education. We had a wealth of data by September of last year showing that it was possible, and worth the risk, to open schools for younger children. And yet it was politics that kept our children out of school, under the guise of "science".

The same is true of masks. The outcomes in places with and without mask mandates are roughly similar in terms of spread and mortality. But god forbid you suggest that wearing a mask while working out is counterproductive at best.

The whole talking point bugs me. There's no such thing as "science says". On most topics you'll find a wealth of "science" that is contradictory. It's through assimilation and reconciliation of various conflicts through further experimentation that we arrive at "the truth."

Calling an entire group "Anti-science" is just another way to shut down conversation and dialog. Just like calling an entire group lazy, racist, criminals, etc.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#43

Post by bryanlarsen »

dilap wrote: post #27

This conflates "official positions of authorities" with "science". It's like a modern religion, with three tenets: (1) science made everything around us (iPhones and airplanes!) (2) we speak for science (3) therefore you must believe our conclusions. But in fact, that's the opposite of a proper scientific attitude, which always admits doubt, and believes experiment over authority. As for why authorities are increasin…

If it's real science, you would expect advice to change as more data comes in, so perhaps you should find a better example.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#44

Post by dqpb »

StavrosK wrote: post #40
dilap wrote: post #27

This conflates "official positions of authorities" with "science". It's like a modern religion, with three tenets: (1) science made everything around us (iPhones and airplanes!) (2) we speak for science (3) therefore you must believe our conclusions. But in fact, that's the opposite of a proper scientific attitude, which always admits doubt, and believes experiment over authority. As for why authorities are increasin…

The mask thing was a Noble Lie to prevent PPE shortages: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/yes-experts-will-lie-to-yo... I agree that that erodes trust, but it was for "a reason".

I’ve found it very hard to find the original news sources saying not to wear masks, despite remembering how prevalent that messaging was.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#45

Post by vbtemp »

z5h wrote: post #13

Any group/person/movement with any agenda other than promoting science and reason must necessarily be against science and reason at points. Any “agendaism” must be prepared to attack science and reason as well as proponents of science and reason. I’m not suggesting other agendas aren’t important. Rather that they can incur a science-debt, and don’t typically have the motivation to pay it off. Edit: I should be clear…

I think you are spot on. I also think much of the "anti-science" right is a reaction to the "anti-science" left, which has lots of ideologies that cannot be defended by pure reason alone, and need to be defended instead by online angry mobs. Whether it's to do with social issues (crime, racial issues, gender issues, abortion, immigration, etc), pop ideas today are defended by a "how dare you" if you are not in the movement. Note also how they leave no room for moderates: Someone with balanced views on abortion, for example, is as bad as a catholic fundamentalist. Someone with mixed views on immigration is a neo nazi. Etc

I'm also reminded of the near daily episodes on reddit, which constantly has threads highlighting outrage over police brutality, criminal injustice, etc. Then, when it's someone they don't like getting crushed by the system, it's a party of joyous triumphalism.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#46

Post by daemoens »

refurb wrote: post #7
psychiatrist24 wrote: post #3

Stopped reading at "a key feature of the political right" - the political left has adopted many anti-scientific ideas, too (if you want an example, take gender ideology and critical race theory, or belief that socialism works). People rightfully reject publications that write nonsense like that. If such a publication calls itself "science something something", or worse, has a longstanding reputation for representing…

Indeed. Only if you ignore anti-vaxxers, healing crystals, “food without chemicals”, essential oils, etc can you say with a straight face anti-science is a problem driven by the right. It’s hard to take an article seriously when it only points the finger in one direction.

The only thing I can really say would be the "food without chemicals" part. The rest of that is pretty apolitical except the anti-vaxx movement.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#47

Post by Udik »

GavinMcG wrote: post #22
refurb wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Only if you ignore anti-vaxxers, healing crystals, “food without chemicals”, essential oils, etc can you say with a straight face anti-science is a problem driven by the right. It’s hard to take an article seriously when it only points the finger in one direction.

I think you're talking about certain subjects being more prevalent in left- or right-wing communities. That's different from making opposition to science a political priority. Yeah, there's kooks on the left who go for healing crystals–but that's not incorporated into left politics. On the other hand, elected Republicans have actively fought in the political arena against climate issues being taken seriously. This sh…

> elected Republicans have actively fought in the political arena against climate issues being taken seriously.

Climate science ended mixing up entirely with left wing ideology: de-growth movements, anti-nuclearists, anti-capitalist, etc. First they appropriate whatever they need from scientific discourse to support their agenda, then they denounce everyone who is against their agenda as "anti-science".

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#48

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

dilap wrote: post #27

This conflates "official positions of authorities" with "science". It's like a modern religion, with three tenets: (1) science made everything around us (iPhones and airplanes!) (2) we speak for science (3) therefore you must believe our conclusions. But in fact, that's the opposite of a proper scientific attitude, which always admits doubt, and believes experiment over authority. As for why authorities are increasin…

And the WHO just doubled down on the zoogenesis hypothesis of covid. Yarvin put it best: Covid is science's Chernobyl https://graymirror.substack.com/p/covid-is-sciences-chernoby...

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#49

Post by pjc50 »

eric_b wrote: post #42

Eh, the political left is just as guilty of abusing "science" for its own agenda. If you look at what peer reviewed articles in medical journals say about COVID, and then you look at the "pro-science" left-leaning-media coverage - you'll see two entirely different things. The political left picks and chooses the findings it likes to fit the narrative, and exaggerates them for effect. In the United States, if you live…

> possible, and worth the risk, to open schools for younger children

Could you elaborate on this? It seems to be clear that while children themselves are relatively unscathed, they spread the virus among themselves and to their family members quite effectively.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#50

Post by rriepe »

dilap wrote: post #27

This conflates "official positions of authorities" with "science". It's like a modern religion, with three tenets: (1) science made everything around us (iPhones and airplanes!) (2) we speak for science (3) therefore you must believe our conclusions. But in fact, that's the opposite of a proper scientific attitude, which always admits doubt, and believes experiment over authority. As for why authorities are increasin…

I call it "Science with a capital S." It seeks to find and destroy an outgroup, always, like a bad cult. It portrays non-believers as harmful. There's no exceptions. Outsiders are always portrayed as dangerous with many lives at stake.

It's never about the science but about rooting out the people who disagree. It's purely a political movement and has almost nothing to do with science.

As a religion, it's the worst religion ever. Science is a tool for attaining the truth, not a top-down ideology for defining it. People who adopt the ideology ultimately lose science as a tool.

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