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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#311

Post by dagw »

soco wrote: post #263
dagw wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up attending church, and on the whole have nothing but good things to say about the whole experience. It gave me both spiritual and moral support when I needed it the most and some of the best people I have ever known, I got to know through church. In fact in ways I mourn the loss of both my faith and my 'church'. However once I realized that, on a very fundamental level, the core of what they where claiming a…

I feel and felt the same. As many other commenters mentioned, a church must be a few elements in order to be sustainable: a community, a set of beliefs, an organization... and each one of these can be more or less important for the individual, and each on of these can go awry in its own way, often without affecting in the same way the other individuals or the other elements. Thus the discussion becomes even more diff…

Yea. In some ways I feel slightly uncomfortable speaking up for or defending the church in any general way. For as positive as all my experience have been and all the good I have seen churches do, I have also seen churches (even churches within the same general denomination as the church I attended) completely destroy the lives of people.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#312

Post by MisterBastahrd »

splithalf wrote: post #202
toomuchtodo wrote: post #145

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

You don’t care about it’s positive influence on other people? I understand feeling like you are enlightened and psychologically adjusted such that you don’t need anything beyond science and your own intellect, but surely you see the positive effects it has on other people, and cultures? Do you really think a world without black churches is a better world?

My black kids are doing just fine without a church and I've got to wonder why you think they need one.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#313

Post by Robotbeat »

ramraj07 wrote: post #280
AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

1. Stance on abortion among your brothers in church? As if brothers should even have one that matters? 2. Do you follow the edict that if you’re not baptist then by definition you go to hell? How do you reconcile this with having friends or anyone at all you care about who are then going to hell? Point is, I’m not sure there is any middle ground that’s acceptable. I don’t come here as an atheist, just as someone who’…

Mainline Protestant typically relatively neutral leaning pro choice.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#314

Post by eloff »

bko wrote: post #170
eloff wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree that religion is the only moral system. If you are not religious you still have a moral system. In the West this had been heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian values, but if you look at countries without that influence you still see a lot of similarities in morals.

I never said its the only one. It's one that has survived over thousands of years. Other places in the East may have their own values imposed outside of the context of religion. But it still exists. The West for all its flaws based on Judeo-Christian values has its merits. For one, a Japanese person would be more likely to be accepted as an American than an American be accepted as a Japanese. Religion isn't perfect,…

You said you don't have a moral system without religion.

That's preposterous.

You also don't end up with a moral system you just invented. But how much of it is due to religions present and past is a fair question.

Religion is universal, it must clearly serve some purpose and convey some advantage to humans. I'm not arguing it has no value.

It's also unclear if you could get rid of god based religions if they would not just be replaced with something else similar to a religion. Woke culture makes me wonder.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#315

Post by baryphonic »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #256
baryphonic wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a "good person?" And do you really think people who believe in God are just listening to "fairy tails (sic)" so they can be face the reality of death? Is that really the best portrayal of Christians you can come up with?

Christians base their belief system on a collection of stories from 2000+ years ago and the idea of a deity and other planes of existence (edit: “Heaven” and “Hell”) of which no proof exists. Please correct me if any of the above is inaccurate.

We base our beliefs in the teachings of Jesus, who was born as a human despite being divine; ministered to people he encountered, performed many signs, taught profound moral truths (e.g. through parables, small debates with the leaders of the time, or even breaking up angry lynch mobs), and then became a scapegoat who suffered, died, was buried and came back.

Everything else follows from that, at least in Christianity.

I suppose I believe in "other planes of existence" (is this supposed to be Heaven and Hell or something?), but those are contingent upon the truth of Jesus' suffering, death and resurrection. I guess I'd say I think we already exist in another "plane" which is immaterial and inaccessible in this life, but is nonetheless real.

I suppose I also "believe in a deity," but not with the connotations you seem to be suggesting. God is not some component of existence or reality or the universe, independent of other things; He is the only source of what it means to exist. I would say I don't even believe that God exists, but that He is below or outside of existence, as He caused everything else to exist that exists. If someone believes in God as a sort of Santa Claus or Jinn granting wishes, then no, I don't believe in that kind of "deity" either. That's just silly nonsense.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#316

Post by engineeringwoke »

bopbeepboop wrote: post #262
subpixel wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if one believes, the notion that these often corrupt, sometimes malignant control organizations we call churches are a necessary expense of both time and money is a harder sell in the modern world. The social role that churches play is where the opening raises real concern. What comes after organized religion may well look more like conspiracy theory.

I would argue several modern problems trace to the collapse of churches as a social institution: - loneliness - lack of dating/marriage - lack of community infrastructure - lack of elder care If you look at existing charities, much of the rubber meets road work gets done by churches or church affiliated groups. You don’t have to like the message or the people, but I think it’s pretty obvious ditching churches without…

I think you are looking for a regular socially democratic government, not a church.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#317

Post by KMag »

ramraj07 wrote: post #280
AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

1. Stance on abortion among your brothers in church? As if brothers should even have one that matters? 2. Do you follow the edict that if you’re not baptist then by definition you go to hell? How do you reconcile this with having friends or anyone at all you care about who are then going to hell? Point is, I’m not sure there is any middle ground that’s acceptable. I don’t come here as an atheist, just as someone who’…

> 2. Do you follow the edict that if you’re not baptist then by definition you go to hell? How do you reconcile this with having friends or anyone at all you care about who are then going to hell?

I'm not a Baptist, but presumably nearly all of them find it sad and unfortunate and feel compassion for most of humanity.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, though. Only believing things that make you happy isn't a very good philosophy of life.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#318

Post by giantg2 »

Applejinx wrote: post #171
giantg2 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I can’t help but think the world will be better off when we abolish big religion." So those people who want to belong to a group and believe in it without seeing what might be better can move into political groups for their identity? The actions and methods are human nature, so I think they will just move to a different domain.

The OP says 'U.S.'. US churches ARE political groups, in practical terms.

Any organization is political. The difference is whether we are talking about the organization or the members. Most members are not that politically involved. There are plenty of people who are very religious and participate in the religious ceremonies. If these people no longer had that, it's possible some of them would move into material participation in political parties, offices, etc.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#319

Post by Robotbeat »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #247
AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

> ...bad theology...heresies... Without "scriptural literalism" how do you know what bad theology and heresy are? Is good theology not simply that which most closely corresponds to Scripture? Your comment makes sense on a Roman Catholic view – in which the traditions of the church are authoritative – but not on the Protestant view (sola Scriptura).

Some are led by consensus and “spirit-leading.” Like the Quakers.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#320

Post by datavirtue »

lazysheepherd wrote: post #72
987yghj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have chosen new religions and a new elite priesthood, they just have different names.

This avenue of thinking are messing with language. And language is what we organize and coordinate with as human beings. So stop this! Religion is a very precise definition. By which your comment is not only technically wrong but also practically harmful. Definition of the religion according to dictionary is: "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods." So no, they…

Hmm...not the definition I found. Relativism abounds but it can't be "it depends" all the way down. We at least need to agree on definitions before we start arguing.
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