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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#251

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

My own experience being raised mainline Protestant was a bit different which might be illustrative: My parents were not at all devout, but still took wisdom and moral lessons from the Bible, especially from the teachings of Jesus. At the same time the preachers in town leaned right in their beliefs and focused on reading and interpreting more obscure passages. This resulted in a modest ongoing tension about what exac…

Witches? Seriously? That's just looney crap.

I take it that "last straw" means the "straw that broke the camel's back". I just hope that stories like that won't be conflated with healthy practice of Christianity in people's minds.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes beyond fairy tails. There is a sense of community that (for the most part) only religion has been able to maintain in the information age.

Yes, we’ve had to create our own social fabric that a church would’ve been, but as our loved ones and friends are spread across the country and world, a weekly gathering would do us little good. The challenge is to build community without the judgement that comes along with the beliefs required to attend a church. We strongly support LGBTQ+ folks, the idea of ethical non monogamy, people who elect to be child free, e…

You may find that you judge others, and others judge you, without the help of religions. Some would say that’s one theme of Christian belief, “judge not, lest we be judged ourselves.” You are ironically doing what you find fault in, judging others. “Christians are too judgmental.” Well, so are non-religious folks and they don’t have any scripture or religious leaders to remind them to be humble, not to cast stones, turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor. If nothing else look for counter examples, the many people of faith who do a lot of good in the world through charity and spiritual work. I assure you, these people exist. Don’t fall prey to confirmation bias and a culture that stigmatizes faith and spirituality as unsophisticated and oppressive, it’s literally the opposite of the truth if you look at it empirically.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You see people, day-in-day out being terrible, judgmental, hateful people, except on Sunday when they're in the front row being holier than thou. But you see this nearly everywhere, with every type of organization/group. A prime example would be politicians and political groups who constantly talk about how they want to help people, but then throw those same people under the bus to get what they want. This is not s…

Those other institutions are also losing credibility. Fewer people than ever claim membership in unions, political parties, and public office holders and legislatures as groups are continually setting new records for low approval ratings.

> Fewer people than ever claim membership in unions, political parties,

That is exactly the opposite of my experience.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#254

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

> you don’t need fairy tails to be a good person and to come to terms with death I don't think this is true in general. I have a pet theory that much of the conspiracy theory following we are seeing is actually a weakening of church. People need spirituality - it doesn't matter where that spirituality comes from (except for local social pressures - but those aren't relevant to this point). If they're not getting spir…

> much of the conspiracy theory following we are seeing is actually a weakening of church

I completely agree. Critical Theory / Wokeness / Social Justice is a new secular religion on the rise for the sophisticated and cults of personality are there for the unsophisticated

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the problem is that there is no clear tradition of “cultural Christian” like there is for “atheist Jew”. I don’t believe in God. I love the high church and choral traditions. I attend a church where the minister feels the same. Am I a Christian? No. And yes.

This isn’t necessarily true outside the US. The running joke about Greeks is that they are 98% Greek Orthodox (official stats from a while ago) and 40% atheist. You might be atheist and communist (a fairly common combo in Greece) but will still probably roast a lamb on Easter with your family.

I agree. I first learned that Christian Atheist was possible in an Anglican Church in England.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#256

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

What is a "good person?" And do you really think people who believe in God are just listening to "fairy tails (sic)" so they can be face the reality of death? Is that really the best portrayal of Christians you can come up with?

Christians base their belief system on a collection of stories from 2000+ years ago and the idea of a deity and other planes of existence (edit: “Heaven” and “Hell”) of which no proof exists. Please correct me if any of the above is inaccurate.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#257

This may be a very bad idea. But as (in the words of the at-present top comment) a fundamentalist adhering to scriptural literalism (aka a conservative Lutheran) [addendum: who does not hate everyone], I feel compelled to offer to answer questions anyone might have for me, so AMA. I don't really want to individually respond to everything throughout the rest of the comments, but I will begin by saying that most church…

Thanks for doing this! (Don’t have questions; just encouraging more not-mega church public Christianity.)

You're welcome!

Hopefully it goes well.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#258

In my opinion the main problem for religion right now is the failure to explain their arguments at the highest intellectual level, publicly, consistently. Once I was exposed to better theology and philosophy of Christianity I was blown away. Edward Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ helped open this up. I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically…

Oh, yes. Quoting Fulton Sheen:

"There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be."

In this case, I would include the majority of Catholics who are oblivious today about the very basics of what the Church believes, much less why, and practice it seldomly on one hand or cliquishly on the other. When the culture becomes hostile to the faith, it is little wonder that many fall away if all that kept them there was vacuous habit and social inertia. Obviously, if your ideas are primitive and stupid, and the culture within the Church enters a malaise, and the promised rewards of defecting and joining the popular chorus seem so enticing, then you will experience defections and apostasy. The intellectual mediocrity of people like Dawkins impresses only the uneducated or the mis-educated.

But frankly, the kinds of apostasies we're seeing in the US are mostly a formality. Those defecting are effectively apostates already. They're just not going through the motions anymore, either because they're tired of faking it, or because the social incentives of putting on appearances no longer seem to exist. You might even fear being seen as a "weirdo", though you will find that most people will admire, even feel intimidated by, a well-informed and educated Catholic who unapologetically and without a feeling of shame or cowardice is frank about his beliefs.

Of course, FWIW, the Church itself is growing in numbers. It is growing rapidly in Africa and in Asia, though Catholics, and more broadly, Christians are the most persecuted group in the world (persecution also tends to produce more conversions). The West is undergoing a period of cultural decadence. Whether it will survive or whether the carcass will rot out completely, I don't know. At the moment, it looks like the future of the Church is on those continents.

Feser has written a few other books that others might also find useful. I have greatly enjoyed his writing. Some find Peter Kreeft, himself a convert, a good introduction (his "Apologetics" for instance), and I've heard some good things about Scott Hahn. These are probably good entry points before venturing into the vast literature of the last few millennia.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#259

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

Not just other commenters, the (sociological) science backs you up as well: political backlash is a big reason for recent disaffiliation. https://sociologicalscience.com/articles-vol1-24-423/

That’s the predictable, and in the end, best outcome. The most foolish thing cultural “christianity,” could do is pick a political party. Now that we’re a generation past that, the so-called “religious right” has evolved into a thin veneer of pseudo-religion over a very specific political faction, and that shallow falseness is driving most people away.

As for actual Christianity and those who study it, in many ways the teachings of Christ could not be more different than the “religious right” advocates today. Christ taught followers to love their neighbors as themselves, and not to judge other people, because in God’s eyes all humans were equally and impossibly flawed. When a mob formed to stone an “adulteress,” as was the prescribed punishment for that “crime” in ancient Judaea, Jesus said “let the person who is without sin throw the first stone.” The mob dissolved, and he told the woman she was forgiven.

Note that this is not what the religious-political faction of Jesus day wanted either, and in the end they arranged for him to be crucified as a result.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#260

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

> you don’t need fairy tails to be a good person and to come to terms with death I don't think this is true in general. I have a pet theory that much of the conspiracy theory following we are seeing is actually a weakening of church. People need spirituality - it doesn't matter where that spirituality comes from (except for local social pressures - but those aren't relevant to this point). If they're not getting spir…

I think you have a reasonable point embedded in a false dichotomy. People need to feel a sense of purpose, and that can come from spirituality, engagement with a community, service, fulfilling work, etc.
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