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EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

reuters.com

381–390 of 567 posts

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#381
post #363
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's always windy somewhere. You just need to expand the electrical grid. Doubt. Weather systems/patterns are often extremely large. > Also what is the cost of storing that energy? Insanely high compared to the cost of producing it. For one common naive case: Storing the energy in Li-Ion batteries in e.g. a Tesla Powerwall: $437/kWh.

> For one common naive case: Storing the energy in Li-Ion batteries in e.g. a Tesla Powerwall: $437/kWh. How did you come up with that number? Total cost of the battery divided by its capacity? Since you do not dispose of the battery upon first discharge, the true cost should be amortized across the thousands of cycles it would go through during its lifetime. Batteries are still far from economical in many situations…

Oh, you don't understand the difference betweeen power and energy...

The context here is storing energy for the days when it's not windy or when it's cloudy.

> Batteries are still far from economical in many situations, but there are many situations where they now make sense.

This a not about your Tesla, or what you feel about Tesla and batteries in general.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#382
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that figure, if you look at the median (the black line), it's quite small. There is this one very anti-nuclear Stanford professor, who has managed to publish some estimates where the carbon footprint of nuclear power is way larger than in other estimates. These numbers are probably now forever part of the literature, and they make the range of published numbers quite large in every literature survey. Sometimes thi…

Wow. Have you any idea how much his study pushed up the mean or got a summary of how his study differed? As you say, the estimates vary wildly and I haven’t really got any idea where his sit relative to others

For this thread, your previous uninformed comments sadly made my post three levels up end up at -2, so all of this is kinda hidden. Please post again with this "newfound knowledge" in future threads.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#383
post #363
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's always windy somewhere. You just need to expand the electrical grid. Doubt. Weather systems/patterns are often extremely large. > Also what is the cost of storing that energy? Insanely high compared to the cost of producing it. For one common naive case: Storing the energy in Li-Ion batteries in e.g. a Tesla Powerwall: $437/kWh.

> For one common naive case: Storing the energy in Li-Ion batteries in e.g. a Tesla Powerwall: $437/kWh. How did you come up with that number? Total cost of the battery divided by its capacity? Since you do not dispose of the battery upon first discharge, the true cost should be amortized across the thousands of cycles it would go through during its lifetime. Batteries are still far from economical in many situations…

[deleted]

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#384
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are Sweden, which does not have any coal plants and is a net exporter of energy replace nuclear with coal? https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/energy-consumption-by-sou... That claim is simply plain misinformation. For the import vs export of energy you find that here: http://media.matochklimat.nu/2021/02/image1.jpg Sweden import much more coal energy when Barsebäck and Ringhals was up and running. Source for gr…

Sweden imports energy from countries which use coal plants. The Swedish ethos is “we are green. It was the other guys!”

Can you show me a source for your claim that it has increased? Here's another graph for the energy mix over time, with coal not changing at all. This time from the government energy agency. See page 5.

http://energimyndigheten.a-w2m.se/FolderContents.mvc/Downloa...

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#385
post #343
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were talking about windmills a moment ago, now you're talking about turbines? You're very confusing.

So, you obviously didnt watched the video. Yes my bad, in my native language windmill and wind turbine are the same word. I was talking about wind turbines, as you can see in the video.

In that case, 200 cubic meters amount to around 80 tonnes of CO2 emissions. That's around 80 MWh worth of coal electricity, which a 2 MW wind turbine running at a 30% CF offsets in around a week. So a complete non-issue.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sustainability: Nuclear fission fuel on earth can last about 4 billion years using breeder reactors [1]. Safety: Fossil and biofuel waste kill 8 million per year, compared to "up to 4000" total, ever, from commercial nuclear power. Cost: Fossil and biofuel cause those health effects and climate change. Nuclear does not. If those were considered in markets, nuclear would be excellent. Furthermore, modern nuclear build…

> Sustainability: Nuclear fission fuel on earth can last about 4 billion years using breeder reactors [1]. Are there safe breeder reactor designs? How to prevent people taking some plutonium on the side? > Safety: Fossil and biofuel waste kill 8 million per year, compared to "up to 4000" total, ever, from commercial nuclear power. True. But irradiating large patches of land/streams of water just makes for bad publici…

> Are there safe breeder reactor designs?

Yup. As shown in data above, current nuclear is about as safe as you can get. On top of that most breeder reactors operate at low coolant pressure, enabling even more robust safety. For example the Experimental Breeder Reaction-2 did two famous demonstrations in 1986 where they turned off the coolant pump without inserting the control rods and the reactor both shut itself off anyway and removed the afterglow heat with passive natural convection.

> How to prevent people taking some plutonium on the side?

Same way we do today. Inspections and safeguards. You have to remember that it's wayyy easier to just buy natural uranium and enrich it than it is to steal radioactive plutonium from quasi-military guarded facilities. Furthermore, the latter can be done whether or not we have any commercial nuclear power so it's basically a moot point.

> bad publicity

Sure, but we can try to show people statistics to convince them that scary-looking things can sometimes be appropriate and good. Air travel would be a good example here.

> Also I do not think that anyone seriously accounts for the excess deaths caused by isotopes/heavy metals polluting the downstream farms of the Hanford site

They absolutely do. Hanford impact is extremely well studied. These are WW2/Cold War era nuclear weapons sites, which are not necessarily comparable in mission to civilian power generation.

> As for China and Russia: Is it fair to compare with these countries, considering their current standard in terms of environmental safety and concern for human life versus monetary interest of a few?

Do you say the same regarding current low solar manufacturing prices, driven almost entirely by the Chinese? If you want a more US-focused example, consider that the US Navy regularly constructs 300 MW nuclear power plants to power submarines and aircraft carriers in shipyard environments with excellent cost and schedule performance.

> Are there positive effects too? For example, will certain plants be able to grow under the shade photovoltaics provide in a desert?

Surely there are, but most people like to take the precautionary principle about such dramatic and vast geoengineering efforts.

> If we could truly build perfectly safe "nuclear batteries"

The "perfectly safe" standard you're applying to nuclear but not other energy tech is very perplexing to me. Why not 'anything 2 orders of magnitude safer than fossil and biofuel is safe enough'?

> How is all that fuel shipping to and from these mini-reactors going to be handled?

Like this [1] ;)

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mHtOW-OBO4

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing is perfectly safe. Hydro dams fail. Wind turbines throw ice. People fall off roofs installing solar. But 8 million people per year are killed by particulate emissions from normally-operating fossil and biofuel combustion plants. Nuclear, wind, solar, and hydro are all orders of magnitude safer ways, per TWh generated, than the dominant worldwide sources. Therefore we should replace fossil and biofuel with nuc…

Killing a predictable number of people each year is not danger, it's damage. The danger posed by hydro is real, but entirely negligible compared to nuclear. But of course we should replace fossils by renewables and phase them out before nuclear. And if nuclear wouldn't take too long to build building new nuclear plants as a stopgap may actually make sense. Unfortunately, they do.

Fukushima was a triple meltdown after total inundation of 1960s-class reactors. The short and long-term death-toll from radiation was quite literally zero, as reaffirmed by UNSCEAR just last month [1]. I don't think the "boundlessly large nuclear accidents make the technology untenable" argument really holds water given this kind of experience.

[1] https://unis.unvienna.org/unis/en/pressrels/2021/unisous419....

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#388

They should invest in thorium research, only then fission would become sustainable at human time scale

I mentioned this in another thread but this simply is not true. Thorium breeder reactors are indeed sustainable, but so are uranium breeder reactors. [1]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26604898

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#389
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it matter if some hypothetical future civilization cannot understand it though? If humanity as we know it is gone then compared to that some random future bad mining accident seems silly to worry about.

Sure but there are other dangers, some of this stuff has to be cooled. It has to be guarded. The place to store it has to be secure from all kinds of influences we can't control etc. To cite wikipedia: > However, even a storage space hundreds of meters below the ground might not be able to withstand the pressures of one or more future glaciations with thick sheets of ice resting on top of the rock, deforming it and c…

The stuff that needs any active maintenance is not supposed to go into the long term storage. Basically hot stuff just sits in a pool, then sits in a yard somewhere and natural air movement cools it. Then when it gets cool enough it can go into the mountain/formation.

> glaciation

Seems like a very future problem. If humans are around by then, we can move the stuff easily.

> We have made surprisingly little progress in the regard of long term storage

Agreed.

But this is not exactly a problem for nuclear power. (Even if it has become a talking point.) Nuclear waste storage is a boring and simple problem. (It needs cooling and physical security.) It should be put simply on a big remote boring military base - plenty of them in Nevada - so people don't worry about it being close to where they live.

Long term storage is a long term problem it needs basic research, and simply the continuation of our civilization, which then puts the waste where currently it thinks it should be.

Eg. it's completely possible that 500 years from now we'll finally recycle it, and then dump the rest into the Sun just for the lulz. (Or put it on an inert rock.)

Though I think we should build the amazing big spikes someone proposed to mark the site as "bad": https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/ten-thousand-years/

https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/temple-of-doom-...

> I think this is preferable to nuclear energy which is not that dangerous but has the potential to become a unmanageable catastrophe at some point.

Agreed!

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#390
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you disagree with Wikipedia's definition? "Dispatchable plants have varying startup times. The fastest plants to dispatch are hydroelectric power plants and natural gas power plants. For example, the 1,728 MW Dinorwig pumped storage power plant can reach full output in 16 seconds.[4] Although theoretically dispatchable, coal and nuclear thermal plants are designed to run as base load power plants and may take hour…

From the same article: "Dispatchable generation refers to sources of electricity that can be dispatched on demand at the request of power grid operators, according to market needs. Dispatchable generators can adjust their power output according to an order.[1] Non-dispatchable renewable energy sources such as wind power and solar photovoltaic (PV) power cannot be controlled by operators." https://www.nmppenergy.org/f…

>Dispatchable generation refers to sources of electricity that can be dispatched on demand at the request of power grid operators

Precisely. It's not "on demand" if it takes a day to ramp up production and another day to ramp it down. It's on yesterday's demand, which is f***ing useless.

This contrasts with gas peaker plants which can scale up in seconds. These are known as "dispatchable".

>Nuclear stands out as clean, dispatchable firm power, says Kwarteng

Quoting an offhand comment from an idiotic energy minister trying to justify a boondoggle plant on a nuclear propaganda website isn't as convincing as you seem to think it is.

>You are confusing dispatchable with flexible.

You are confusing baseload with dispatchable.

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