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EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

reuters.com

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Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#361

There's a lot of straw men being fought in the comments again. The main issue with nuclear power in Europe has always been the storage of nuclear waste, for which many countries still don't have a long-term solution. Proponents of nuclear power like to pretend the opposition exists merely on the basis of "but what if it goes boom!", so they don't need to face the reality that countries like Germany are sitting on a l…

Probably a dumb question, but why can’t we just blast nuclear waste out into space with a rocket? Seems like a rather small payload in the grand scheme of things.

And then what happens when the rocket explodes ?

Because that scenario is very common.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#362
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What else do you propose as replacement for coal and gas power plants? Who expects nuclear energy to fix our CO2 problems? In the following decades, it is supposed to slow down CO2 buildup, not "fix our CO2 problems".

> What else do you propose as replacement for coal and gas power plants? Renewables > Who expects nuclear energy to fix our CO2 problems? It's the main claim of the Nuclear AstroTurf campaign. > In the following decades, it is supposed to slow down CO2 buildup, not "fix our CO2 problems". As I've shown: it is not the appropriate tool to do that in an efficient way.

It is not realistic to power current developed societies using only solar and wind power. For simple reason - we can't store energy well.

Stop throwing up and shooting down strawmen. Nuclear energy was never going to replace all energy sources. Only the worst ones, like coal and gas power plants.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#363
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always windy somewhere. You just need to expand the electrical grid. We are still far from the point where we have enough wind that any of it goes unused. Also what is the cost of storing that energy? It's so much cheaper to generate it might still come out cheaper.

> It's always windy somewhere. You just need to expand the electrical grid. Doubt. Weather systems/patterns are often extremely large. > Also what is the cost of storing that energy? Insanely high compared to the cost of producing it. For one common naive case: Storing the energy in Li-Ion batteries in e.g. a Tesla Powerwall: $437/kWh.

> For one common naive case: Storing the energy in Li-Ion batteries in e.g. a Tesla Powerwall: $437/kWh.

How did you come up with that number? Total cost of the battery divided by its capacity?

Since you do not dispose of the battery upon first discharge, the true cost should be amortized across the thousands of cycles it would go through during its lifetime.

Batteries are still far from economical in many situations, but there are many situations where they now make sense. They are also getting cheaper all the time, and as they do, so will the range of applications increase.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#364
post #143
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically what we already do, and it works fine. But opponents will still pester you about where to put the sealed boxes :P

Put it under your home.

Sure! How much am I being paid for the nuissance of construction, and ongoing disturbance of my day-to-day life when waste deliveries occur?

So now that your appeal to emotion has failed, do you have any actual points?

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorists are not known to be the most logical people, to be honest. They are going to try anything that can generate terror in large scale and a dirty bomb is a very, very terrorizing thing to general population. General population thinks anything with radiation is panic worthy, even though there isn't that big of a deal.

> Terrorists are not known to be the most logical people, to be honest Terrorists want blood and guts on national TV, not a statistical raise in cancer over 30 years.

Look around you at the world stricken by pandemic. What self respecting terrorist isn’t pivoting to bioweapons now instead of keeping Black Sunday or The Sum of All Fears on loop in the headquarters (for the life of me I can’t remember the name of the Tom Clancy book where Iran weaponizes Ebola)

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#366
post #359
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western countries have spent many billions to secure the nuclear reactors of rotten USSR / Russian submarines which were endangering the baltic sea and also the Soviet RBMK-1000 reactor, which was causing the chernobyl disaster... > Russia has a lot of uninhabited space Nuclear installations are not in uninhabited space. For example the still operating (!) RMBK-style reactors are not that far away from major cities.

West had the money and the will, I think that was a dollar well spent. US irradiated large areas of Pacific Ocean and atmosphere (US) with its testing program, harming people living there and contaminating whole world with radioactive isotopes. UK dumped radioactive waste in barrels into Atlantic ocean, has bad record on nuclear safety (Windscale accidents) and continues to run old nuclear power plant that does not p…

> West had the money and the will, I think that was a dollar well spent.

And the need, since the baltic sea has a lot of countries which would be effected by leaking nuclear reactors.

mining, processing and 'storing' of nuclear material isn't any better in Russia.

> Soviet-build power plants near cities aren't as bad as people think, if run safely by competent people

I think there is not much reason pretending that the russian nuclear industry is especially competent.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#367
post #4

Crazy they were able to label natural gas as “sustainable” but nuclear just barely squeaked in.

Natural gas or biogas? Same gas but the first is fossil while the other is made from fermenting sewage and hence renewable

It says natural gas in the article. If it were something as specific as biogas I imagine it would have been mentioned.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#368

There's a lot of straw men being fought in the comments again. The main issue with nuclear power in Europe has always been the storage of nuclear waste, for which many countries still don't have a long-term solution. Proponents of nuclear power like to pretend the opposition exists merely on the basis of "but what if it goes boom!", so they don't need to face the reality that countries like Germany are sitting on a l…

> There's a lot of straw men being fought in the comments again.

The thing is, these are not just straw men, but talking points frequently used by nuclear energy opponents. Along with others, like asserting that nuclear energy is a source of CO², etc.

If nuclear proponents had to focus only on reasonable, grounded talking points, they would probably be happier for it.

> for which many countries still don't have a long-term solution.

It's an OK point, and it's a shame that Germany seems to skip its environmental responsibilities. However, EU laws apply to all EU countries, including the ones that do a better job.

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#369
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what, you’re right- I agree. However our largest energy creation mechanism is absolutely destroying the planet in non-linear and difficult to measure ways. Coal is not a dramatic killer but it kills us in droves, now and long into the future. Nuclear waste, in comparison, is more of a “known” issue, and were scared of what we know. I’m talking about coal because Sweden is displacing its nuclear power draw wi…

Where are Sweden, which does not have any coal plants and is a net exporter of energy replace nuclear with coal? https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/energy-consumption-by-sou... That claim is simply plain misinformation. For the import vs export of energy you find that here: http://media.matochklimat.nu/2021/02/image1.jpg Sweden import much more coal energy when Barsebäck and Ringhals was up and running. Source for gr…

Sweden imports energy from countries which use coal plants.

The Swedish ethos is “we are green. It was the other guys!”

Re: EU experts to say nuclear power qualifies for green investment label: document

#370

Nuclear power seems incredibly expensive and complicated, even more so than large coal power plants. The logistics alone are crazy. Nuclear power's inherent radiation danger to living organisms and our shiny new 3nm GPUs is also real. Additionally uranium ore seems quite limited on earth and thus makes nuclear fission seem like a non-scaleable technology. Maybe this resource is better used to solve rare edge cases li…

Sustainability: Nuclear fission fuel on earth can last about 4 billion years using breeder reactors [1]. Safety: Fossil and biofuel waste kill 8 million per year, compared to "up to 4000" total, ever, from commercial nuclear power. Cost: Fossil and biofuel cause those health effects and climate change. Nuclear does not. If those were considered in markets, nuclear would be excellent. Furthermore, modern nuclear build…

> Sustainability: Nuclear fission fuel on earth can last about 4 billion years using breeder reactors [1].

Are there safe breeder reactor designs? How to prevent people taking some plutonium on the side?

> Safety: Fossil and biofuel waste kill 8 million per year, compared to "up to 4000" total, ever, from commercial nuclear power.

True. But irradiating large patches of land/streams of water just makes for bad publicity. Also I do not think that anyone seriously accounts for the excess deaths caused by isotopes/heavy metals polluting the downstream farms of the Hanford site or similar sites, like the one near my home town Hanau (see comment below).

> Cost: Fossil and biofuel cause those health effects and climate change. Nuclear does not. If those were considered in markets, nuclear would be excellent. Furthermore, modern nuclear builds in Korea, China, and Russia are cost competitive without that advantage.

South Korea suffers from massive corruption and the country is practically run by a few ultra-rich families, even Chinese are complaining about that fact. ;)

As for China and Russia: Is it fair to compare with these countries, considering their current standard in terms of environmental safety and concern for human life versus monetary interest of a few? It is no wonder that regulatory costs there are lower. A human life is apparently less valuable.

> Geoengineering: Turning the Earth's deserts black with solar PV causes serious impact on the environment [2]. It's arguably more environmentally friendly to not have that kind of geoengineering impact.

This is something to consider. Are there positive effects too? For example, will certain plants be able to grow under the shade photovoltaics provide in a desert? Would wind turbines reduce peak windspeed and stop or revert desertification?

> Perfectly safe fuel rods: again, we're comparing a hypothetical danger that we have good solutions for [3] against a present killer of 8M people per year...

If we could truly build perfectly safe "nuclear batteries" that would be awesome. Unfortunately shielding combined with the fact that it won't work as a closed system for long (need for "refreshing" spent fuel in a breeder periodically) makes that impractical due to hard physics. As far as I know.

How is all that fuel shipping to and from these mini-reactors going to be handled? Normal nuclear fuel transport cost lots of money and require high security. Are you going to put those perfectly safe rods in an Uber? Like that radioactive fracking brine on the back of a small truck without shielding? That model could work in Russia... or maybe the US.

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