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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

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Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#341

Post by tsimionescu »

cactus2093 wrote: post #302
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it's like amazon entire business model is based on exploitation of labor Wait till you find out how the electronics and clothes in your house are made and how the materials they're made from are sourced or what the workforce that picks the fruit and vegetables you see in the supermarket, endures. It is rarely (never?) discussed in the west how all the consumer goods are cheap simply because the supply chain relies o…

The percentage of humans living in poverty around the world has never been lower [0]. How is that just spin? I also can’t relate to your “all we hear about” point at all. I feel like I really have to go out of my way to find any discussion about anything good in the world, the vast majority of what I hear is negative takes like yours about how everything is horrible and everyone is oppressed. [0] https://data.worldba…

Those numbers mean nothing. First of all, anything before maybe 1900—1950 is meaningless, as no one was collecting data about how people actually lived. They are only estimates based on national fortunes, for periods of time when many people mostly lived off the land.

The poverty line is also arbitrarily low, with many countless people over the poverty line who are dying of hunger. A more realistic poverty line would probably be several times bigger than the current value, which would fuether skew the numbers.

Not to mention, as others have pointed out, the vast majority of people taken out of poverty were taken out by dictatorial China's social programs, not capitalism.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#342

Post by gglnx »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #243
JBSmoove wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany's workforce in automotive and many other industries is HIGHLY unionized. I've never heard of these people being lazy, not wanting to work etc. In fact German engineering is the envy of the world! VW, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche all German engineered and manufactured by heavily unionized workforces! Sounds like your anecdotal bad experience with unions is not representative of reality. And FWIW I can list you just…

>VW, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche all German engineered and manufactured by heavily unionized workforces! Sure, but for each of those there are 10-100 other smaller companies in automotive or other industries that don't have unions, and some German companies have stirred up quite a few scandals of not following the employment laws or abusing their workforce, which coincidentally was mostly immigrants. Cherry picking the bi…

I don't know why you claim that smaller companies in the automotive sector in Germany don't have ununionzed workforces, but the IG Metall has a »Organisationsgrad« in this sector (how many of the workers are union members) above 90 percent (see https://www.wiwo.de/politik/deutschland/gewerkschaften-die-u...).

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#343

Post by runarberg »

mlindner wrote: post #124
foepys wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All German car manufacturers are heavily unionized. VW has one of the strongest unions in Germany and is one of the largest car manufacturers in the world.

European unions are completely different from US unions in how they act. UAW is the only car union in the US and recently had federal probes and they arrested like 15 people in the leadership (they were using union dues to buy ferraris, backyard pools, and other such things). They currently have a federal monitor making sure they reform. UAW is the union trying to organize Tesla's plant. I should also note that almos…

Another thing worth noting is that European nations have mostly nationalized labor laws. Worker’s rights which unions are bargaining for in the USA are national laws in countries like Germany and—to a much greater degree—Sweden. In Europe if you want more paternity leave, you don’t ask your union, you vote for a labor friendly party. Worth noting is that corruption also exists in unions in Europe. So corrupt union leaders is not enough on its own to spin a narrative where unions in America are uniquely bad.

If the narrative that unions hinder business growth was true, you have to provide with some mechanism for which that would be the case. An easy one is that businesses have to spend more per workers and hence cannot afford bigger investment. This sounds right, but it is anything but. If that were the case you wouldn’t see Volvo factories still operating in Sweden.

What is it precisely that unions in America are doing which is not a national law in Europe, and European unions aren’t doing which causes businesses “to wither and stagnate for the gain of a privileged few”?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#344

Post by dunnevens »

aphextron wrote: post #322
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have ACA now, anyone can get affordable insurance.

Sure, if you have $500 a month laying around no problem.

In many states right now, there are zero cost premiums for those who make within 200-250% of the Federal Poverty Line. Percentage varies between states, or sometimes even by counties. This was part of Biden's stimulus package and should help a lot of people.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#345

Post by ausbah »

lukejduncan wrote: post #281
ausbah wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

calling it a free market is laughable naive. the market is lopsided in favor of businesses because many laws at the state and federal are explicitly pro-business and anti-union; see "right to work laws", the 1947 Taft-Harley act, etc. - especially over the past 20 years and saying workers should just go and join a union backed job is even sillier when [1] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

Right to work is pro employee. If unions want membership they shouldn’t be able to coerce it. They should have to earn it and compete for it. If a union can’t survive based on voluntary membership then that tells you something.

it is the state infringing in the market on the side of business and capital by restricting the ability of workers to collectively bargain with employers

workers are less well off but it's ok because "individualism"

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#346

Post by ncallaway »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #317
clcaev wrote: post #314

The entire concept of unionization seems unnecessarily confrontational. It does not need to be this way. Corporations are creations of the state. There is nothing preventing the state to require significant representation of employees in every board of directors. This board representation could support management that better reflects employee participation, e.g. Sociocracy. In this way, labour and capital could work…

The biggest confusion I have is everybody seems to approach Amazon and Tesla unionization as "hopefully it happens so workers will get better wages!" I could be wrong but... I'm pretty sure Amazon and Tesla pay great relative to their space. Relatively demanding, sure. I get it. We've all seen the article where some Amazon worker urinated in a bottle because "the job is just so ruthless!". They employ hundreds of tho…

> The biggest confusion I have is everybody seems to approach Amazon and Tesla unionization as "hopefully it happens so workers will get better wages!"

That might be the thing you're wrong about. It sounds like most of the Amazon unionization efforts _aren't_ necessarily about better pay. It seems like more of the focus is about better, more humane working conditions.

If Amazon pays its workers slightly above average that's great, but if they treat those same workers like absolute shit with inhumane working conditions, then that's a problem that a union can help resolve.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#347

Post by ncallaway »

tomnipotent wrote: post #339
api wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I listened to a podcast recently about Amazon union drives and apparently the big gripe isn't wages but working conditions. The almost universal sentiment is that people are treated like robots. Breaks are so rare and short that pissing in bottles or defecating in bags is common. Sometimes people have to choose between relieving themselves and eating since the break is too short for both. Most of the people interview…

> pissing in bottles or defecating in bags is common I'd be willing to wager this "fact" has been brought up more in this thread alone than has actually happened on the job. Makes for great sensationalism, though. The union cause would be much better served without this silly BS being shared like it's the actual cause of woos.

"Stop pointing out the worst abuses of the workers, in your effort to reduce the abuse of workers!"

https://theintercept.com/2021/03/25/amazon-drivers-pee-bottl...

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#348

Post by macinjosh »

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#349

Post by thirdlamp »

JBSmoove wrote: post #240
npad wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, yeah those are good points. I can certainly see it reducing the severity of disputes in theory. In practice though I'm skeptical. I've read a little about the history of UAW. They really seemed to view workers vs mgmt as an adversarial zero sum game. Meanwhile Toyota were developing their production system using the kaizen principle of bottom up continuous improvement. Unions played a huge role in making…

Ford sold 900,000 F150s in 2019. Toyota sold about 336,000 Camrys. They sold a little over 110,000 Tundras. About 200,000 Tacomas. And Ford gets GIANT markups on the F150s, they are super profitable for them and the best selling truck for many many years now. Toyota, Honda aren't even close to American truck and SUV sales. So explain to me again how US autos aren't competitive with Japanese brands?

Look outside the US and you can easily see how US Auto is uncompetitive.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#350

Post by hedora »

hoppyhoppy2 wrote: post #296
loceng wrote: post #287

How is anyone buying into the complete false statement/propaganda that what Elon said is a threat? Has anyone commenting here even read Elon's tweet in question? "Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare." - Elon,…

I think the threat is that union members wouldn't get stock options.

It wasn’t a threat: UAW has never allowed that type of compensation in a union contract, and have specifically blocked attempts to tie compensation to performance in the past.

The point of the tweet is that Tesla workers are already treated better than their UAW counterparts. Why let the UAW come in and screw it up?

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