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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

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Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#281

Post by lukejduncan »

ausbah wrote: post #251
cwhiz wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It should be a free market. If the employees don’t like their treatment they should leave and take a different job. I am sure there is a UAW job out there to be had. The most likely outcome from this is that Tesla moves more and more production out of a California and into a more business friendly state, such as Texas.

calling it a free market is laughable naive. the market is lopsided in favor of businesses because many laws at the state and federal are explicitly pro-business and anti-union; see "right to work laws", the 1947 Taft-Harley act, etc. - especially over the past 20 years and saying workers should just go and join a union backed job is even sillier when [1] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

Right to work is pro employee. If unions want membership they shouldn’t be able to coerce it. They should have to earn it and compete for it. If a union can’t survive based on voluntary membership then that tells you something.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#282

Post by eternalban »

astrange wrote: post #172
missedthecue wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They pretty beautifully baited Sen. Elizabeth Warren into running her mouth today. She wrote - " I'll fight to break up Big Tech so you’re not powerful enough to heckle senators with snotty tweets. " If she brings an anti-trust suit against them, it will be so easy for Amazon's lawyers to argue that she is only doing so to violate their first amendment rights, which she full out admitted to today.

Senators don't bring antitrust suits against anyone, as far as I know. That would be a separate branch of government.

But they can engage in virtue signaling like the rest of us.

But in all seriousness, it would be optimal for a society that values liberty and freedom to move away from platforms to standards. No need to breakup FANGS if NIST or something similar defines qualitative API standards for social networks, or more broadly societal network services. And this will also be a huge boon for the startup space and true non-predatory innovation in the virtual services space.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#283

Post by mikeryan »

missedthecue wrote: post #123
villgax wrote: post #85

people need to look at the AmazonNews twitter handle, spews corpo BS at every turn almost like some intern got hold of that account

They pretty beautifully baited Sen. Elizabeth Warren into running her mouth today. She wrote - " I'll fight to break up Big Tech so you’re not powerful enough to heckle senators with snotty tweets. " If she brings an anti-trust suit against them, it will be so easy for Amazon's lawyers to argue that she is only doing so to violate their first amendment rights, which she full out admitted to today.

Breaking up Big Tech isn’t an idle threat from Warren. It was an explicit part of her platform when running for president. She has always believed that some companies run afoul of anti-trust laws.

This far predates a spat with an Amazon twitter handle

https://2020.elizabethwarren.com/toolkit/break-up-big-tech

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#284

Post by r0p3 »

aborsy wrote: post #199
vincnetas wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? Because for me, working in scandinavia, unions looked quite useful and reasonable.

I had this naive image in mind that unions are labor activists mobilizing against exploitative corporate practices. What I witnessed opened my eyes to the realities on ground, that seemed like almost opposite. As usual, life is more complicated! * The objective of trade unions is not to protect workers and improve their conditions (at least directly). It’s to protect themselves. * In every organization, there exists…

What was your job in france that gave you this experience?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#285

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

jbroson wrote: post #279
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>VW, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche all German engineered and manufactured by heavily unionized workforces! Sure, but for each of those there are 10-100 other smaller companies in automotive or other industries that don't have unions, and some German companies have stirred up quite a few scandals of not following the employment laws or abusing their workforce, which coincidentally was mostly immigrants. Cherry picking the bi…

SO OP gets to claim based on his anecdotal experience that unions are awful and full of lazy people. But pointing out there are wildly successful unions filled with hardworking people is "cherry picking"?

I didn't say unions are not successful, I said that workplaces like VW or Porsche are not the norm in Germany. They're like Germany's FAANG; very successful, but not the norm for every industry employee there since they don't all enjoy such good conditions.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#286

Post by whimsicalism »

hrktb wrote: post #242
aborsy wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had this naive image in mind that unions are labor activists mobilizing against exploitative corporate practices. What I witnessed opened my eyes to the realities on ground, that seemed like almost opposite. As usual, life is more complicated! * The objective of trade unions is not to protect workers and improve their conditions (at least directly). It’s to protect themselves. * In every organization, there exists…

Going through all of your point, it felt like every “unions” mention could be replaced with “management”. Protecting themselves ? check. Politicized the work environment ? check. Abusive practices ? check. Skewed view of the world and cronyism ? check. I think what you are seeing is just a reflection of who succeeds in French companies. Some chose unions, some management, some find other niches, but none of these see…

This is the kicker with every one of these discussions, really.

The ceiling on bad behavior is set by management, because they can do all of those bad things people claim unions do, and more - right now. The union gives you recourse

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#287

Post by loceng »

How is anyone buying into the complete false statement/propaganda that what Elon said is a threat?

Has anyone commenting here even read Elon's tweet in question?

"Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare." - Elon, https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808

Edit to add: lots of Elon hate blocking critical thinking here on HN.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#288

Post by concordDance »

Jonnax wrote: post #255
JBSmoove wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care who was "baited" A US Senator threatening to retaliate and break-up a business because she didn't like tweets about her is straight-up authoritarian thuggery. It's the same shit Trump used to do but when Liz does it...well it's GREAT, she's "fighting for the working class"

So it's okay for a business to treat employees so badly they find they have to piss in bottles? And it's okay for their official PR twitter account to lie and say it doesn't happen? But it's not okay that a politician says they're going to do something about it?

Politicians should not be threatening to silence people or companies, regardless of whether the latter are lying or treating people badly.

If Amazon is breaking employment law or anti-monopoly law or anything else it can be fined or broken up. What it should not be is silenced.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#289

Post by sokoloff »

foerbert wrote: post #248
sokoloff wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“We give our workers stock options now. We do not expect to do so under a union contract.” I don’t see that as “threatening workers”, but as a reasonable communication between employer and employees and a proper counterbalance against union claims that the workers will be better off if they unionize. “We give our workers stock options now. No other automaker working under a union contract does so.” is something that…

That's real easy to say when there isn't a union yet. And the company has zero incentive to give any kind of realistic and useful information in this situation. They can say whatever they want, and it doesn't mean anything. They don't even know what the non-existent union will want or care about later, so how they can have any accurate expectations even if they are perfectly rational and honest. The only purpose thes…

I agree that they shouldn't be unduly influenced by the company when contemplating joining a union.

But if they're paying the workers part in cash and part in options, and the union organizers are pitching that they'll raise their wages, I think it's fair for the company to point out that that is likely to result in moving some of the comp from options into cash.

The UAW and representatives can certainly make statements today. Here's one: https://uaw.org/statement-uaw-vice-president-cindy-estrada-d...

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#290

Post by Ericson2314 »

cwhiz wrote: post #238
telaelit wrote: post #55

I wish the NRLB would be much harsher against business owners and executives who engage in anti-union rhetoric and behaviors. People have the right to form unions, lying about losing benefits and lowering pay should be handled much more harshly, there should be actual penalties instead of just having to read a statement and delete a tweet.

I disagree. It should be a free market. If the employees don’t like their treatment they should leave and take a different job. I am sure there is a UAW job out there to be had. The most likely outcome from this is that Tesla moves more and more production out of a California and into a more business friendly state, such as Texas.

This free market you speak of is in fact fairly sensitive to initial conditions, and will never reconcile the interests of the rich and poor on its own.
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