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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

reuters.com

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Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#171

Post by sangnoir »

rsj_hn wrote: post #137
foepys wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All German car manufacturers are heavily unionized. VW has one of the strongest unions in Germany and is one of the largest car manufacturers in the world.

Unions in Germany are very different from unions in the U.S. U.S. unions are much more adversarial, seeing themselves as the enemy of management. In fact it is illegal for a member of management to be in a union in the U.S. In Germany, unions hold board seats and see themselves more as partners, invested in the overall success of the business. The principle of codetermination means that union members can be in manage…

> Unions in Germany are very different from unions in the U.S

Union shop or not, employers in the US are more adversarial, primarily serving the interests of shareholders and will usually not voluntarily give workers a seat at the table. Of course the American unions have to be different as the environment is less cooperative than Germany

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#172

Post by astrange »

missedthecue wrote: post #123
villgax wrote: post #85

people need to look at the AmazonNews twitter handle, spews corpo BS at every turn almost like some intern got hold of that account

They pretty beautifully baited Sen. Elizabeth Warren into running her mouth today. She wrote - " I'll fight to break up Big Tech so you’re not powerful enough to heckle senators with snotty tweets. " If she brings an anti-trust suit against them, it will be so easy for Amazon's lawyers to argue that she is only doing so to violate their first amendment rights, which she full out admitted to today.

Senators don't bring antitrust suits against anyone, as far as I know. That would be a separate branch of government.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#173

Post by KaiserPro »

bendbro wrote: post #163

[flagged]

> Professional certifications, tests, dues, stupid rules about who can do what job when? No thanks.

That can be part of a union, but then they are democratic, so it depends on who you elect to run things. A bad union is just like a bad employer.

> I'll gladly collectively bargain for higher compensation and better conditions though.

I mean that's literally the point of a union. they are there to bring the money to take the employer to court. (ideally the threat is enough to get changes.)

I do think its cute that you think that a democratic union is akin to communism. There is nothing stopping a workplace from having more than one union, its quite common in the UK.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#174

Post by astrange »

londons_explore wrote: post #164
oivey wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unionized workers get what they negotiate for. Given how tech works, a Tesla union very well could demand options. It is absolutely false that unionization precludes employees getting options.

Except they usually don't... Unionized industries tend to be adversarial - if the employees get a better deal, then the employer does less well. Therefore receiving options is a poor negotiation tactic.

Only in the US setup. Europe uses codetermination and other systems that align them with their employers. Although they tend to get paid less than US tech companies, but so does everyone.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#175

Post by Frondo »

pjc50 wrote: post #142
s1artibartfast wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think their point is that the American form of unionization is bunk. If you look to Europe workers are free to choose between many associations of voluntary unions which advocate for their specific interests. They are not forced to have a single representative for negotiations with their employer and are free to abstain from of participation as well.Much like the American voting system and American Congress, unions…

The term for this is "closed shop". I've no idea why the US unions tend to be closed-shop, possibly because the high antagonism from employers makes it the only stable solution.

The Taft-Hartley Act banned closed shops in 1947:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop#United_States

It's literally the first line of that section.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#176

Post by EvilEy3 »

KaiserPro wrote: post #173
bendbro wrote: post #163

[flagged]

> Professional certifications, tests, dues, stupid rules about who can do what job when? No thanks. That can be part of a union, but then they are democratic, so it depends on who you elect to run things. A bad union is just like a bad employer. > I'll gladly collectively bargain for higher compensation and better conditions though. I mean that's literally the point of a union. they are there to bring the money to ta…

[flagged]

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#177

Post by sangnoir »

GavinMcG wrote: post #151
FireBeyond wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some ambulance companies out here are so understaffed that employees regularly work 48 to 72 hours STRAIGHT. Still only get paid $13/hr though.

Fortunately it wasn't regular, but my record was 84 hours straight. (And for $11/hr!)

Did that include some power-naps? I don't know if the human mind can stay alert for that long without visual hallucinations and/or episodes of microsleep. My personal experience was that rhigs got weird after 36 hours of no sleep, then again I had no practice

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#178

Post by cloudfifty »

eru wrote: post #100
markdown wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be glad you aren't slaving from 6am to 6pm. Unions fought for the privileges you enjoy now, whether or not you are yourself in a Union. Further, if more people joined and supported Unions, Americans might one day get to enjoy the work/life balance that most of the rest of the world enjoys, with sufficient vacation time, paternity and maternity leave, etc.

> Be glad you aren't slaving from 6am to 6pm. Unions fought for the privileges you enjoy now, whether or not you are yourself in a Union. Be glad you aren't sitting in total darkness: I am praying every morning that the sun goes up. Sunlight is a privilege you enjoy now, whether you are joining my prayers or not. (Correlation ain't causation.)

Are you suggesting that the labour movement is actually not the cause of (western-)Europe's significantly better labour/welfare laws than the US - which unsurprisingly happens to never had a European-style mass labour movement?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#179

Post by KaiserPro »

aborsy wrote: post #134

Working in France completely changed my view of unions. I sure hope the horrors I saw won’t happen to Tesla.

And yet, the level of inequity in france is nowhere near as much as USA.

Sure there arn't as many mega rich, but then there arn't people hundreds of thousands of people being bankrupted by medical bills either.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#180

Post by pjc50 »

Frondo wrote: post #175
pjc50 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term for this is "closed shop". I've no idea why the US unions tend to be closed-shop, possibly because the high antagonism from employers makes it the only stable solution.

The Taft-Hartley Act banned closed shops in 1947: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop#United_States It's literally the first line of that section.

So why are so many people in this thread complaining about "having" to join a union?
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