Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

They Just Moved to Austin. Now They Want to End One of Its Traditions

texasmonthly.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

471–480 of 502 posts

Re: They Just Moved to Austin. Now They Want to End One of Its Traditions

#471

Post by dionidium »

xapata wrote: post #325
dionidium wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they were reasonable people and considerate of others they wouldn't be doing that in the first place. Respectfully, you're probably giving yourself too much credit here (and your neighbors not enough). It's almost certainly the case that you (and me and everybody else reading this) has done something that annoyed a neighbor. You either just didn't realize it or you were tired or stressed and slipped up. But the…

Again, it's not a question of what the most likely reaction is, but how grave the worst reaction would be. You hold at least one insurance policy? If so, you understand the rationale in at least one domain.

This doesn't actually make sense. Of course it matters how likely the outcome is. We all routinely engage in behaviors for which the worst possible outcome is certain death and we do so because that outcome is rare enough that the benefits outweigh the risk.[0] The base rate matters a lot.

[0] Many of these activities, like, say, driving a car, are probably orders of magnitude more dangerous than, ahem, talking to your neighbor.

Re: They Just Moved to Austin. Now They Want to End One of Its Traditions

#472

Post by dionidium »

sneak wrote: post #414
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still haven't seen what your suggested course of action is? Alright, let's say I have a neighbor playing loud music at 2am. I walk down, ask nicely if they'd turn it down. They ignore me. What then? What am I supposed to do from that point?

You seem to feel your options are escalate to violence (or the implied threat of same) by calling the cops, or just deal with the loud music. I personally am with Asimov: violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. It has little to do with whether you employ the violence/threat yourself, or call a man with a gun over to do it for you. The correct course of action in almost all circumstances is "do nothing". There…

> There are some good reasons to escalate a situation. I'm not of the belief that a noise disturbance is one of them.

This mislocates the point of escalation. The first point of escalation occurs when you arrive and the resident doesn't say the words "I'm sorry about that" followed immediately by turning the music down. The second more serious point of escalation (if there happens to be one) occurs when the police arrive and the same thing happens. In both cases the epicenter of escalation is within the person who won't turn their music down when lawfully required.

Everyone else has behaved reasonably and within the law and so can't meaningfully be said to have escalated the situation.

Re: They Just Moved to Austin. Now They Want to End One of Its Traditions

#473

Post by sneak »

dionidium wrote: post #472
sneak wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to feel your options are escalate to violence (or the implied threat of same) by calling the cops, or just deal with the loud music. I personally am with Asimov: violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. It has little to do with whether you employ the violence/threat yourself, or call a man with a gun over to do it for you. The correct course of action in almost all circumstances is "do nothing". There…

> There are some good reasons to escalate a situation. I'm not of the belief that a noise disturbance is one of them. This mislocates the point of escalation. The first point of escalation occurs when you arrive and the resident doesn't say the words "I'm sorry about that" followed immediately by turning the music down. The second more serious point of escalation (if there happens to be one) occurs when the police ar…

No, having armed people show up to force them to turn down the music (by first threatening violence with their armed presence, and then applying actual violence if that doesn't work) is the point of escalation. Armed law enforcement is not a reasonable response to loud music, full stop.

I've actually written about this very issue before:

https://sneak.berlin/20200628/the-problem-with-police-in-ame...

Re: They Just Moved to Austin. Now They Want to End One of Its Traditions

#474

Post by dionidium »

sneak wrote: post #473
dionidium wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are some good reasons to escalate a situation. I'm not of the belief that a noise disturbance is one of them. This mislocates the point of escalation. The first point of escalation occurs when you arrive and the resident doesn't say the words "I'm sorry about that" followed immediately by turning the music down. The second more serious point of escalation (if there happens to be one) occurs when the police ar…

No, having armed people show up to force them to turn down the music (by first threatening violence with their armed presence, and then applying actual violence if that doesn't work) is the point of escalation. Armed law enforcement is not a reasonable response to loud music, full stop. I've actually written about this very issue before: https://sneak.berlin/20200628/the-problem-with-police-in-ame...

I actually do think people should take your point seriously, even as I disagree with your conclusions. When you make a law you are always doing it with the implied violence you highlight. The law itself is an escalation, in a sense. If someone refuses to follow the law, then society has to ask itself what it's willing to do about it. If nothing, then the law is meaningless. To make the law is to decide that you're willing to enforce consequences for violating the law. And furthermore (and probably much more important, in the long run) you're willing to enforce even harsher punishments on those who refuse to accept sanctions for violating the law.

A society should be careful not to have too many laws; on an individual level one should understand clearly what it means to want something to be illegal (and what it means to refuse to obey the law, should you find yourself in a situation where you might be tempted to do that).

Re: They Just Moved to Austin. Now They Want to End One of Its Traditions

#475

Post by tmm84 »

howinator wrote: post #238

I live in this neighborhood, about three blocks north of where the car club meets. I’m white. I’m a homeowner. You get the picture. Honestly, these people complaining in Weaver sound insane. They moved into a community and it’s their job to integrate with the community. We have a Brit who lives on my street that does community organizing and he’s been wonderful about building a sense of community that integrates the…

Neighbourhoods change whether we like it or not. Pinyata stores being bulldozed and a person with the right connections takes over the place is just what happens. Does the car club have a valid reason to meet there? If it is just because they've always met there, that doesn't seem valid. There are certainly many places they could meet at (they could even buy a piece of land and do anything they want legally without having anyone complain legally about it). If they got money for big fancy wheels, tires to destroy, audio systems, etc. then they could pool some money together.

I mean, I want their car club to survive and I want them to enjoy their hobby no doubt. I would hate it if someone told me I couldn't enjoy my hobbies. However, some hobbies require a place to do them and in this case it has come to the point they need a place that will allow them to do things they want to do. Then again, they go somewhere else and do it where people don't care. Just my two cents.

Re: They Just Moved to Austin. Now They Want to End One of Its Traditions

#476

Post by patcon »

failwhaleshark wrote: post #330
patcon wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Better to leave it to people who do such things professionally. I empathize, esp if you're of the generation (like me) where we've grown accustom to distance in time and space via async messaging. Having said that, I would respectfully push back: negotiating everyday conflicts of life with others (who are most often strangers) is NOT something we should allow to be overly professionalized. Yes, it's true that some…

I agree. I think it's good to ask a neighbor if they seem the type to be amenable to it, otherwise better ask them if they've seen a cat wandering around. I had a neighbor who was an out-of-work hot-head who shouted at everyone and had his own posse of low-lifes. The guy BBQed right next to the wooden fence (in violation of fire codes) using absurd amounts of lighter fluid and charcoal that seeped into my unit direct…

Ah shit, that sounds like a fuckin rotten experience. Sorry you had to go through it.

i always wonder, when I have fantastically social failures like that: how could i tune the knobs to make this go better with this specific type of person, who sees me in this way... like if I did this 10 more times with 10 more hot-heads, I wonder what I'd learn about what he responds better to. I'm sure there are parts of who I am that I can't talk around, but still. And not that I have the nerve to keep putting myself in that situation...!

Anyhow, makes me curious from a distance, but to be clear, I'm not judging that there's anything else you could've done :)

Re: They Just Moved to Austin. Now They Want to End One of Its Traditions

#477

Post by 6E3C517C »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #442
spaced-out wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's pushing people out is the rising cost of property, caused by more and more money bidding for less space. If the government had done more to create more space, prices would not have risen so dramatically. What if government policy for the last few decades had been to keep housing as affordable as possible. So if average rent in a city started increasing, the government would make sure new apartments and got bui…

It's the property taxes that kick people out. There should be a graded scale that caps how much property taxes can rise in a year. Say 1% for current owners (or at most the rate of inflation). That would slow a LOT of this down. Sure change is inevitable but let people have a chance to adjust.

This is Texas. It has: - a limit on how much the appraised value of a property can increase per year - a limit on how much each tax unit -- county, city, etc. -- can increase their levy - a exemption for elderly or disabled homeowner with even lower limits.

Re: They Just Moved to Austin. Now They Want to End One of Its Traditions

#478

Post by xapata »

dionidium wrote: post #471
xapata wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, it's not a question of what the most likely reaction is, but how grave the worst reaction would be. You hold at least one insurance policy? If so, you understand the rationale in at least one domain.

This doesn't actually make sense. Of course it matters how likely the outcome is. We all routinely engage in behaviors for which the worst possible outcome is certain death and we do so because that outcome is rare enough that the benefits outweigh the risk.[0] The base rate matters a lot. [0] Many of these activities, like, say, driving a car, are probably orders of magnitude more dangerous than, ahem, talking to yo…

Perhaps I should have said it more carefully. One should care about the distribution of outcomes and their magnitudes along multiple axes of impact, plus potential mitigation options.

All this leads me to conclude that sometimes calling the police is the right thing to do, even if the likelihood of retaliation is low.

Re: They Just Moved to Austin. Now They Want to End One of Its Traditions

#479

Post by aardvarkr »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #440
clipradiowallet wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, doing burnouts and donuts on public streets That bit "on public streets" is material - that makes it illegal. Calling the police is the normal course of action there, right?

No, it's a common practice at this particular event. If it's been going for decades and no one has complained why should this one couple come in and try to impose their will on the community, especially with the overtones of racism/gentrification? Old Austin is disappearing pretty rapidly on the East side I can understand why they (the community) pushes back. Note everyone wants white picket fences and perfectly scul…

So is it illegal or not? Did the city of Austin permit the willful and wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property?

Re: They Just Moved to Austin. Now They Want to End One of Its Traditions

#480

Post by nate_meurer »

maxsilver wrote: post #315
vitaflo wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Where's a person supposed to lay down roots, without retreating deep into a suburb? I don't need or want a job at FAANG or the next "unicorn"; I'm happy with my normal tech job/income and the life it affords. Why couldn't those things stay confined somewhere else and leave the rest of us in peace? Literally anywhere in the upper midwest. "Oh but the winters are brutally cold and the summers are too hot and humid" yo…

> Literally anywhere in the upper midwest (snip) a nice $300k house in a good neighborhood I assume that's what the parent commenter meant by "retreating deep into a suburb".

Not at all. Many midwest and high-plains cities make it easy to be near a pleasant urban core for reasonable cost.

Lincoln and Indianapolis are two random examples that I've looked into recently.

Post reply on HN