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Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

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Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#151

Post by keanebean86 »

Animats wrote: post #115
Nokinside wrote: post #54

As he says here, the decision not to take risk and jump to EUV with TSMC and Samsung was the mistake that started this downfall and it snowballed. The decision happened somewhere in the pathfinding stage into 10nm. When Gerald Marcyk was running Intel components research back in the 2001 Intel was already considering using EUV lithography for the 45nm technology node that would come out 2007. It turned out that the s…

A lot of people were hoping someone would come up with a better way to make "extreme ultraviolet" (soft x-rays, really) light than the horrible kludge used now.[1] Syncrotrons were tried. (Whatever happened to Lyncean?[2]) What's used now looks like a physics experiment, not a production process. Drops of tin are hit with lasers to emit X-rays, which are then focused with mirrors on the mask and wafer. This takes a s…

An option would be to replace the laser and tin with some tape. [1] I know tape is a consumable item but is considerably less professional compared to a laser.

[1] https://www.nature.com/news/2008/081022/full/news.2008.1185....

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#152

Post by m463 »

not_exactly__ wrote: post #142
m463 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have traditionally been cycles and we all win. I remember years back when AMD became competitive with intel and then intel turned around and came out with fast cpus, and we had all kinds of choices. I think the PC is a really good thing we don't want to lose it. When we have competition it is better for customers with more choices, and employees who actually have to compete, and there are standard interfaces ne…

Have you used an M1 Air yet? I Because that’s the best computer I’ve ever owned.

At least you can install 3rd party software on a mac. for now. ;)

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#153

Post by KptMarchewa »

ngngngng wrote: post #10

I'm stoked. I've been a bit of an Intel hater lately but more competition is good for everyone. Though I'm guessing other people are excited about these directions as well because their stock is pretty high at the moment.

Agreed. Happy that Intel shareholders elected against making the company a shell to extract value.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#154

Post by KptMarchewa »

formerly_proven wrote: post #83
dragontamer wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has some of the lowest cost of energy / electricity in the world and one of the best rail-freight systems in the world. Our passenger rail sucks and our people are expensive. But significant manufacturing remains in the USA (yes, we manufacture more today than ever before, despite the hoopla about outsourcing). There's a reason for that: USA has some pretty good advantages if you know what to look for.

I (we... us Europeans) often make fun of the US but when shit hits the fan the US often seems to be quite a bit better at actually getting stuff done .

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

Can't wait for when US will finally go 110% on green energy and dumping fossils.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#155

Post by worker767424 »

He's really just deflecting from Intel dropping the ball. He didn't talk about how we got here, he's just campaigning for support for a company that's had a hard time executing by playing the politics card.

I'm not an Intel hater, but this lack of ownership and deflection isn't something I like to see in CEOs.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#156

Post by Daho0n »

vimy wrote: post #143
Taniwha wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML only makes a few machines every year, you can't just buy them off the shelf IMHO banning sales of ASML's product to China is chest thumping protectionist nonsense - if you're worried about the rise of China's military then you should be tangling their economy up more with that of the West so that they have more reasons not to go to war rather than driving them to be self sufficient.

The next war will be fought with AI. It's essential the West stays ahead in chip technology, one of the few advantages we still have. It could be the difference between winning or losing a war with China. > tangling their economy up more with that of the West so that they have more reasons not to go to war This strategy failed, China wasn't interested in becoming like the West. We're in a new cold war, it's time peop…

We are in a cold war because, like back in the day with the USSR and the old cold war, China doesn't want to turn into an Asian copy of the US. I'm no fan of PRC but I wish more countries would do the same. Traveling a lot today and you'll see American cultural imperialism everywhere. Besides, we do need another power to compete with the US so it can't do what ever the f** it wants to. Sadly the only real competition at the world scene today is PRC (and in a few areas, Russia). I for one would rather see more power on the hands of Russia and PRC if the only alternative were complete Americanization of the world.

Globalization is fine in some areas but when a generation can live off of pizza and burgers and yet have never tasted an Italian pizza or non-McDonalds style burger the world is a much poorer place. Everyone is turning into Americans. Asian Americans, Scandinavian Americans, etc.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#157

Post by Spooky23 »

Taniwha wrote: post #133
totalZero wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they're worried about China's military so much as China's independence from the rest of the semiconductor supply chain. When you give China a machine, it's only a matter of time before they reverse engineer it and make something slightly worse but much cheaper. This kind of theft is backed by the government. So the expectation that they will remain forever dependent upon ASML is wishful thinking.

But surely that should be ASML's choice?

History has demonstrated that public companies aren’t going to make the right choice from a Western POV.

Short term gain always beats strategic defeat.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#158

Post by Spooky23 »

dathinab wrote: post #144
r3trohack3r wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think National Security might have something to do with manufacturing of electronics moving outside the US. The war on crypto called for manufactures to either provide two versions of their product, or move manufacturing to a place they could export a single product: https://www.eff.org/pages/decrypting-puzzle-palace

IMHO (ok not very humble) any ware on crypto, weather it's in the past or modern approaches to it is stupid a f and I want to give a metaphorical kick to anyone pushing it. What many people which push it don't seem to realize is that such approaches undermine national and personal security and any benefits gained for it are likely outstripped by the long term drawbacks. Drawbacks like making it easier for foreign act…

Not really. Most armed conflict in the modern era was largely shaped by information access.

World War 2 was the most obvious example.

Re: Intel chief Pat Gelsinger: Too many chips made in Asia

#160

Post by mamon »

totalZero wrote: post #138
tantalor wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost of living is 20% lower in San Jose, Costa Rica (location of Intel manufacturing plant) compared to TSMC in Taiwan.

There are some problems with doing business in Latin America. Corruption (which manifests itself as bureaucracy that can commonly be accelerated by greasing palms) and taxation are both fairly high in many places. It's not all about how much you pay your workers. In my opinion the potential for a greater Pan-American economy is the number one counterargument to Chinese global dominance. We have almost everything we n…

Corruption actually makes doing business EASIER for a company with stockpiles of cash. It can even help you avoid taxes. So it is not a problem, it's an opportunity.
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