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Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

face2faceafrica.com

351–360 of 437 posts

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#351
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And even today you can see NH users in south America facing eyewatering taxes on computer hardware.

Which is the kind of thing that hobbles the economy - it's not like those counties are building their own Intels and Apples as a result of the tariffs.

Yeah exactly. I think the idea of protectionism to kick start the economy probably worked a lot better in the 20th century. In a reasonable space of time you could clone a lot of the products you need and then start exporting.

Take cloning a 1970s car vs an electric one from 2021. While not trivial, I feel if you can make, stamp and weld steel you are half way there for the 1970s. For an electric car you need an enormous supply chain of batteries, microelectronics and all kinds of safety features, etc etc. It's so complicated that big car makers now basically just have one platform of car they base dozens of models off.

However, it's not all bad. China's one child policy is really going to start biting them over the next 10-20 years (and even though they've reduced it now it's hard to see the mindset ever changing) and there will be an enormous demand for cheap labour, which I expect Africa to provide.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#352
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a bit of both. I think I first read about this in Lessig's Free Culture [1], but even Wikipedia mentions some of this: somewhat ironically because of the MPAA's current heavy-handed tactics, Hollywood was founded on piracy and patents infringement. Some moviemakers moved West to explore new territories and climates (Wikipedia mentions D.W. Griffith) but others soon followed suit in order to avoid Edison's pate…

> "without copyright there will be no writers" Just recently had a bit of a good laugh about this. I decided to read Caesar's notes on Gallic wars, and downloaded some random .fb2 It turned out to be a preview fragment, which ended with a stern warning that it is illegal to break copyright laws and that this book can be legally purchased via provided link. I'm sure Gaius Julius is very happy with how these guys prote…

They have a public domain English translation free at gutenberg.org

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#353
I read the article (I'm swiss) but I feel like I'm missing the point.

I immediately looked up the first 2 most locally famous companies I could think of ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolat_Frey + https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cailler which in this case made me read https://cailler.ch/en/about#sustainability ) and in both cases they mention "UTZ Certified" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTZ_Certified ):

UTZ, formerly called UTZ Certified, is a program and a label for sustainable farming. The UTZ label is featured on more than 10,000 product packages in over 116 countries. In 2014, UTZ was reported to be the largest program for sustainable farming of coffee and cocoa in the world. The UTZ program addresses agricultural practices, social and living conditions, farm management, and the environment.

So, from the point of view of sustainability (quality of the product, quality of living of the producers, etc...) the swiss products should be ok, which should be a good thing, right?

Therefore, if general sustainability is OK, then the local companies (therefore, indirectly "the government") shouldn't have problems developing/evolving that kind of industry? Or maybe not?

I'm writing this because I don't understand why such a drastic measure ("stop selling to Switzerland!") is being adopted. I guess that if Ghana does that then Switzerland will just switch to other producers - it will take some time&effort to ensure the same standards (for the quality of both the product & farming) but it's doable => I miss seeing the advantage here for Ghana, as they won't be able anymore to sell their "higher-priced UTZ-certified product" to Switzerland (my assumption is that what they're selling is UTZ-certified).

Am I being naive? Am I overlooking something, maybe simplifying stuff too much?

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you know why I know them? Because there are 0 (zero!) local supermarket chains left. They've all been bought by foreign companies. It depends on your perspective really. When I lived in Oregon, there were Fred Meyers all over the place, but they're all owned by Kroger (HQ in Ohio) now. Are they 'foreign' because they're from another state inside the USA? AFAIK, Kroger keeps the local brands, so IDK why none of t…

Sort of yes. While a lot of the benefits of the development that comes with the growth of the grocery industry in Oregon will stay local, the surplus will not. It ends up in Ohio or inside pensions or investor pockets. But this isn't a great analogy because the U.S. federal government keeps interstate trade much more homogeneous than the EU.

> the U.S. federal government keeps interstate trade

That's part of it, but there's actually also a set of interstate compacts (that still have to be "allowed" by Congress constitutionally) and also Uniform Codes (which don't). Particularly the uniform commercial code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Commercial_Code

Basically, a think tank from the 50's decided to convince all the states to pass laws which just all happened to look alike because they copied from the same source. No interstate agreement required, they just all did it, no congressional thumbs up required. I... don't think the EU is quite on that level of unity yet =)

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#355
post #182
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a smoked chili pepper which I believe is native to the area that is labeled as "ghana pepper" for export, and is hard to find elsewhere. It is _incredible_.

AFAIK peppers are native to the Americas, I'm not sure there is a "native" African pepper. Though they certainly could have been cultivating them for 400-500 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chili_pepper#Origins

Cassava is just the African name for manioc.

See also potatoes, tomatoes in European cuisine.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#356
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's where China was smart I guess. They didn't sign any treaty which forced them into free trade or IP protection, but instead slowly allowed their industries to build up via IP theft and strong protectionism. Now they have giant companies on par with the West's. Whereas everyone who joined the EU in the decade of 2000 (and the Washington Consensus before that in the nineties) is now a pawn of the Western capital…

How can you compare China (population ~1.4bn) to any EU country (population average ~10mn - several orders of magnitude less, even in the case of the largest country)? Size is an advantage, not a disadvantage! Pretty much none of the tactics would have worked for a small country that China played successfully. If you are small you can choose to be independent and protectionist - and remain very poor, or join the part…

“several orders of magnitude less” for values of “several” equalling 2.... no need for the extra hyperbole.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#357
post #63

Here says[0] that Ghana and China are about to sign a $2b deal to build schools, roads, hospitals and other infrastructure. In exchange of cocoa products. Did this work out for Ghana? There are no newer posts since 2018 on this. [0]: https://archive.is/CPFhC

If it's known which roads or area, we could check with satellite imagery. As an OpenStreetMap contributor, I'd be happy to check the current state against what's mapped for a given region.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#358
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sweet irony, read the comment you just replied to > Literally there was an aside that used "20 years" and that's it. Which aside do you think I was referring to? An aside about a different crop in a different period of time, which might I add didn't involve a global pandemic? Saying someone said something they didn't is... a lie. Or would you rather I just interpret it as you breaking HN rules and assuming poor i…

> read the comment you just replied to I can’t read your comment anymore, it was removed for breaking HN rules Beyond that though - it wasn’t an aside... the whole point of their comment (and thus this thread) was switching distribution to other countries...

You could have read it when you replied, but that escaped you clearly...

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#360
post #341
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is called the "infant industry" argument, and it has been made since at least the 16th Century, most famously by Antonio Serra, a proto-mercantilist. This idea of raising tarrifs on imports and then using the money to protect domestic industries has been tried in Latin America in the 60s and 70s, in Africa, and in many places. The results are mixed. The problem with infant industry is that you get a group of loc…

> Another way of saying this is that the infant industries often fail to grow up, they remain protected infants forever. This is a good point! > Each nation's assets should be owned by their own citizens only. Curious, why? Countries vary in size, so this seems like an arbitrary restriction. Also: how is it undesirable to have a foreign company build a factory that hires workers? Won't growth be slower without foreig…

> Curious, why? Countries vary in size, so this seems like an arbitrary restriction.

It is not an arbitrary restriction at all, it is the only possible way to have balanced trade in a hostile environment. You have the balance of trade identity:

change in current_account + change in capital_account = 0

That means in order for nation A to be a net importer of goods, it must sell off its capital to the foreign sector.

So instead of thinking "Lazy Americans love cheap foreign goods, so they import too much and that makes them poorer so they have to sell off their capital to "borrow" from abroad"

Think like this: Nation B prints up money, uses it to buy bonds/factories/etc in nation A, which forces the currencies to adjust so that Nation A's products are more expensive to nation B and Nation B's products are cheaper to Nation A so that enough is imported to balance the current and capital account, and in this way Nation B's intervention makes Nation A poorer.

Then the question becomes, why should Nation A allow this type of intervention?

Indeed, the impoverishment of Ireland was due mostly to British landlords who owned a huge portion of Irish land, and British firms that owned a huge portion of Irish industry, making the Irish mere renters of their own country's capital.

> Also: how is it undesirable to have a foreign company build a factory that hires workers?

You do not need foreigners to do that. For a foreigner to build a factory in nation A, they have to first export some good to nation A, and instead of using the proceeds to importing an equivalent amount of goods, they use the proceeds to buy some land or a factory, etc. That land or factory could have been bought by someone in nation A if they would not have been deprived of the export income.

In other words, in a floating currency regime, it is impossible for the foreign sector to "bring money in" to another country and fund investment - trade is not funded with specie flows - it is only possible for the foreign sector to drain income from nation A's current account, and then re-invest the income that was drained via the capital account. Thus all foreign investments are merely efforts to recycle trade surpluses, and they are required for the trade surpluses to occur in the first place.

That is what is wrong with foreign capital inflows, and why all nations from South Korea to China that follow export-led growth plans always heavily restrict or outright ban foreign capital inflows, much to the consternation of economists who think foreign capital inflows help rather than hurt. Asia knows that these inflows hurt, and it's time we realized that, too.

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