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Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

face2faceafrica.com

301–310 of 437 posts

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#301
post #10

I wish them success, but my prediction is that in a few years they'll have no successful products and the world's chocolate makers have found new suppliers. You can't just make a decision to create successful products.

You can incentivize the creation of certain types of businesses that aid in the economic development of the country though. Many countries, especially in Asia, have "decided" to become successful producers of industrial goods. For example, the automotive and electronics industry in South Korea were heavily supported by national policy, after the government decided that these areas were critical for the development of the country [0]. This actually worked incredibly well - many companies are still around today (e.g. Hyundai, Samsung, LG).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-Year_Plans_of_South_Korea

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#302
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... no it didn't. Didn't even imply it. Literally there was an aside that used "20 years" and that's it. Why would you lie about a comment I can literally just scroll up to read? The pandemic and its effects doesn't need to last 20 years for Ghana and the Ivory Coast to take greater control of their cocoa crop. We're literally watching it happen right now.

> It's not so long since Vietnam went from not growing coffee to being one of the world’s largest producers in under 20 years. I bet they could do it with cocoa too. It’s right here... maybe do a read through before breaking HN rules and assuming poor intent

The sweet irony, read the comment you just replied to

> Literally there was an aside that used "20 years" and that's it.

Which aside do you think I was referring to? An aside about a different crop in a different period of time, which might I add didn't involve a global pandemic?

Saying someone said something they didn't is... a lie. Or would you rather I just interpret it as you breaking HN rules and assuming poor intent on their part?

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#303
post #27
post #15

I'm reading the book The Divide at the moment. It makes the argument that it takes time and the right conditions to build up an industry - infrastructure needs to be built, education and a skilled labor pool with the necessary know-how as well. To begin with, a fledgling industry in a developing country cannot compete with those of already industrialized countries - these are already so effective that they can underc…

> So the book argues that when developing countries are pressured into free trade agreements This should have been obvious since the Opium Wars and the Opening of Japan (see Commodore Matthew Perry). All developed countries are pro free trade for markets where they are strong and fiercely protectionist where they are not (or they consider those markets strategic priorities). I'm from Romania. Romania joined the EU in…

Fellow Romanian here, a person very close to me died of heart-failure in the middle of the street in downtown Bucharest 10+ years ago, not a block away from her employer's HQs at the time. She was in her early 40s, her employer was BCR (the bank that had just been acquired by Erste), and said close person had had a few fights with the new Austrian rulers to be, she was part of the bank's trade-union body, she didn't want her colleagues' jobs to go away after the purchase. The jobs did go away after the purchase, in droves.

A person even closer to me used to work for OMV immediately after they had purchased Petrom (our former State-run oil company). The stories I could hear back then could fill many pages, I still remember seeing the papers with hundreds of people's names on them, people who were supposed to be laid off the following days. And that was just from one company division. To say nothing of the fact that the Austrians had no oil drilling operations, no oil drilling specialists, nothing of the sorts, while Petrom had been in the oil drilling business for decades. Or how OMV had (I think it still has) as its major shareholder the Austrian State, so in fact we managed to sell our oil state company to basically another state.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Part of that is due to their rampant IP theft Weren’t South Korea, Taiwan, and even Japan once known for their rampant IP theft?

Nowhere near as bad. The sheer scale and reach of Chinese counterfeits/crap quality is epic. If there's an olympics for this, China wins all the medals in every event. - Fake apple cables - Fidget spinners - Remember fake Apple stores? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-fake-idUSTRE7... - Remember the milk scandal? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal - And don't forget the Three Gorges…

probably legaly i am wrong. but apple cables and figdet spinners.. not much intelectual property there. there should be separate term for brand infrigment.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"we should allow developing countries" Not to pick on you, but I often hear this frasing in the 'first world' and surely you dont 'allow' or 'disallow' internal policies to an sovereign nation? It sounds like a Freudianslip or something, the reality is that its easy to bully or bribe officials in developing nations.

I get where you're coming from, but in this case they are completely right to use this phrasing, with exactly the connotation you are talking about: the status quo is that the first world is NOT allowing these countries to run their affairs as they want internally. That is, any developing country is presented with 2 options by the developed world: either accept 'free trade' (allow foreign investors to buy up the loca…

> either accept 'free trade' (allow foreign investors to buy up the local industry, commit to IP laws, don't apply tariffs) or no one will be allowed to trade with you or send you aid.

Do multi-national trade agreements (which I believe are the core mechanism for this) actually penalize signatories for trading with non-signatories? Or is it more that trade between signatories is so advantaged that no company within a signatory state would be competitive were it to trade with a counterpart in a non-signatory state?

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#306
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the book argues that when developing countries are pressured into free trade agreements This should have been obvious since the Opium Wars and the Opening of Japan (see Commodore Matthew Perry). All developed countries are pro free trade for markets where they are strong and fiercely protectionist where they are not (or they consider those markets strategic priorities). I'm from Romania. Romania joined the EU in…

As a counterexample, the US has 50 states, and no internal protectionism. Yet there are no "colony" states.

puerto rico?

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#307
post #15

I'm reading the book The Divide at the moment. It makes the argument that it takes time and the right conditions to build up an industry - infrastructure needs to be built, education and a skilled labor pool with the necessary know-how as well. To begin with, a fledgling industry in a developing country cannot compete with those of already industrialized countries - these are already so effective that they can underc…

This is well written. Nice metaphors and thank you.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#308
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think China is making a huge mistake actually. See how TSMC (Taiwan) and Samsung are free to buy ASMLs EUV machines, while China is blocked. Part of that is due to their rampant IP theft. Why sell machines to China if they're just going to copy them? China also messed up big time by enforcing their 1 child policy, and taking so long to open up and industrialize. They're far behind economically compared to wh…

Uuh have you not heard of xiaomi or oneplus? They're already creating high value goods.

Indeed. My 4 year old Oneplus phone taught me that China can make a phone just as good as anyone else. It's a quality product and was at a great price.

With that said, my next phone will be an iPhone. I am trying to de-china whenever I can when it comes to buying stuff.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#309
post #15

I'm reading the book The Divide at the moment. It makes the argument that it takes time and the right conditions to build up an industry - infrastructure needs to be built, education and a skilled labor pool with the necessary know-how as well. To begin with, a fledgling industry in a developing country cannot compete with those of already industrialized countries - these are already so effective that they can underc…

This is called the "infant industry" argument, and it has been made since at least the 16th Century, most famously by Antonio Serra, a proto-mercantilist.

This idea of raising tarrifs on imports and then using the money to protect domestic industries has been tried in Latin America in the 60s and 70s, in Africa, and in many places.

The results are mixed.

The problem with infant industry is that you get a group of local monopolies protected by the government who sell expensive low quality goods to the public, people get sick of it, they want the lower priced better foreign goods as it will increase their quality of life, and at some point there is sufficient political pressure to force a regime change.

Another way of saying this is that the infant industries often fail to grow up, they remain protected infants forever.

On the other hand, if you don't protect your infant industries, then you have no chance against mature foreign competitors, as you point out.

Then there is a third aspect to this, which is that foreign governments, especially East Asian governments (not only China, but China is the biggest offender) massively subsidize domestic industries and so you have to subsidize and protect your industries in return, or they will be destroyed by competitors who never need to turn a profit, or repay a loan, or meet any environmental regulations, or deal with unions, etc.

So it's a tough call. All these theories have valid points, but they all have fatal flaws. For the last few years, I've come around to the following mantra, which is my own development philosophy:

* every country should have a long run balance of payments. That means all trade should be balanced.

* countries should make investments in local productive capacity, but not subsidize industries per se

* countries should not allow foreign companies to set up factories or purchase capital or land. Each nation's assets should be owned by their own citizens only.

* With the above caveats, there should be free trade and no industry protection.

What this means, in practice, is banning foreign capital inflows. Have your own currency, borrow only in your own currency from your own people, and don't allow foreigners to purchase your bonds, stocks, land, private debt, or productive capital.

But trade all you want with them. As long as you do that, your currency will depreciate sufficiently to prevent any flood of cheap imports, and your domestic industries will have a chance.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#310
post #15

I'm reading the book The Divide at the moment. It makes the argument that it takes time and the right conditions to build up an industry - infrastructure needs to be built, education and a skilled labor pool with the necessary know-how as well. To begin with, a fledgling industry in a developing country cannot compete with those of already industrialized countries - these are already so effective that they can underc…

Theory is not trustworthy. Here in Iran, we have had extreme protectionist policies for decades in, e.g., cars, and all it has done is made the car factory owners rich while car quality stagnates and regresses, and prices keep rising.
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