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A new moralism is gripping the literary world

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Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#111

Post by dragonwriter »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #6

It's gripping the entire world. When things are judged, not by how the author intended, but by the readers interpretation, it's a bad situation.

> When things are judged, not by how the author intended, but by the readers interpretation, it’s a bad situation.

I don’t know, I think there’s a very good reason to give significant priority in judgement of acts to their consequences, especially forseeable ones, not just their intentions. That’s as true of acts of artistic creation as any other action.

That’s on top of the fact that forseeable consequences are often a better indicator of actual intent than convenient and otherwise unsupported post hoc statements of intent when an action is criticized for its actual consequences.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#112

Post by mc32 »

dantillberg wrote: post #46
karaterobot wrote: post #8

This article is ridiculous. The current wave of book burning, censorship and denunciation is completely different from previous ones, because I support the positions of the mob. I know that this wave of book burnings, censorship and denunciation will lead to a brighter tomorrow. I should point out that I don't support 100% of the positions of the mob, but I won't say which ones I disagree with because I don't want to…

This line of thinking has me gravely concerned for the future of liberal democracy. I don't know where parent lives in the world, but from my perspective in the United States, I deeply fear that there are many Americans who would support an anti-democratic coup (or mob) in a heartbeat so long as it aligned with enough of their political sentiments. Edit: maybe parent is a little too-secretly sarcastic, but even so I…

I think they’re being ironic and not literal.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#113

Post by leephillips »

KittenInABox wrote: post #5

> In March 2020, staff at the publishing house Hachette in New York, including employees of Little Brown and Grand Central Publishing, walked out over the planned publication of Woody Allen’s memoir, Apropos of Nothing, because the film director was the subject in the early 1990s of a molestation allegation, for which he was twice investigated without charge. Hachette caved to employees’ demands and canceled the rele…

It would be “super weird” if what you put in quotes was a fair account of the stance of the author. In fact, the accusations against Allen are not credible, and that was part of the point.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#114

Post by seneca »

space_fountain wrote: post #98
WillPostForFood wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it doesn’t really say anything about it being ok or not for the larger culture to sanction people You can sanction Rowling, don't buy her books. You can criticize Rowling, you can publish books hating on Rowling, those are all great ways in a free society to show opposition. The problem is that activists want to destroy Rowling, erase her from public space, and deny others the right to buy and read her books. Row…

I mean I’m actually in a camp that this stuff can and has gone too far sometimes, but implicitly this is still almost always an argument about how bad the things said really are, because actually I’m pretty sure most people are fine with some ideas and people being “canceled”. They just think these particular ideas go too far. But the problem is that people then turn around and try to argue that really they’re just a…

I think you're mostly right, but there are actually people who believe in the free flow of ideas. The liberals and libertarians believed it before the current spat of censorship started, and many people who just disagree with the censors this time are flocking to their banners in an alliance of convenience.

That is to say, I think there are actual true believers when it comes to free speech.

Edit: I just reread your comment and there's a "most" I missed the first time. Leaving this comment up, but safe to say I agree.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#115

Post by jfengel »

moron4hire wrote: post #45
kapp_in_life wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There’s only one nytimes best seller that can exist about a Mexican immigrant Why is that? Surely if both are well written/marketed enough they could both be bestsellers?

Also, it's not like "NYTimes Best Seller" is the gigantic accolade people make it out to be. https://scribemedia.com/get-best-seller-list/

It's free marketing -- or at least, a marketing amplifier. Sell enough books and you can get your name in front of a bunch more people. Those people at least know that other people are buying your book.

That said, your link's observation that it's a curated list actually means that it is more of an accolade than merely sales. It means that somebody at the Times wanted the book on the list, which says more to its readers.

It's not much, but when you're trying to stand out in a crowded market, each little bit helps. Popularity has a positive feedback effect, and it's really slow going if you can't take advantage of it. At least for a cycle or two.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#116

Post by utborin »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #89
Pxtl wrote: post #71

Uh, this is definitely going to be a "more heat than light" thread.

I've been trying to figure out why this topic in particular triggers exceptionally passionate discussion on HN. I have some pet theories, but they're really speculative, and I'm not very confident in them.

There's passion, and then there's dirty fighting. Name calling and dismissiveness. A veritable army of straw men. Unwillingness to even attempt to understand an opposing viewpoint.

Let's call that what it is. It ain't "passion."

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#117

Post by Eszik »

makomk wrote: post #78
space_fountain wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this comment exemplifies the core of the issue. It’s not that many people actually have a problem with society holding famous people to account for their misdeeds. It’s that they simply don’t think they are misdeeds. They don’t find a problem with the things JK says and they feel like Woody Allen is probably a nice guy unfairly being attacked. Which like actually fine, that’s a legitimate position you can tak…

The other problem with this claim is that even if you do believe that J K Rowling's personal views are transphobic (and honestly, they probably are), she really doesn't seem to have been using her power to push them. The woke establishment that's been going after her, on the other hand, absolutely used their power to push transphobia in ways that actually mattered, including into UK law.

What do you mean? Rowling has absolutely used her power, i.e her visibility as a very prominent public figure, to write and share tweets and articles that prop up and reinforce the current transphobic discourse in the UK. I'm also not sure who you're pointing you when you say "The woke establishment that's been going after her", because as far as I know the people who have called out her transphobia have definitely opposed the various UK bills and motions you're referring to.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#119

Post by blub »

meanjeans wrote: post #24

I think the author here misrepresented the JK Rowling thing quite a bit. The idea is not to "scour" her texts for hidden anti-trans sentiment. The idea is that Rowling makes money off of selling her books and has built an empire, and the resultant power is now used by her as a platform to propagate anti-trans speech. Quite a different issue and also quite novel (pun unintended). Death of the Author is a concurrently…

Being against the existence of trans people and criticizing the claims or actions of people that happen to be trans are two different things.

But the online trans community is extremely aggressive against any criticism, trying to slander whoever they consider their opponents and performing character assassinations.

Anti-trans speech may be perfectly fine. They're not saints and they're not perfect, why should they be beyond critique?

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#120

Post by taxidump »

titzer wrote: post #48
karaterobot wrote: post #8

This article is ridiculous. The current wave of book burning, censorship and denunciation is completely different from previous ones, because I support the positions of the mob. I know that this wave of book burnings, censorship and denunciation will lead to a brighter tomorrow. I should point out that I don't support 100% of the positions of the mob, but I won't say which ones I disagree with because I don't want to…

We have always been at war with Eastasia. Brawndo is what plants crave!

Go away, baitin'!
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