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It's Never a Bicycle Accident

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Re: It's Never a Bicycle Accident

#91
post #23

To all the outlawed cyclists I'd like to say: show your fellow countrymen how it's done in the salvation state of the Netherlands. Cyclists own the roads here, see for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqQSwQLDIK8

Watched it and still see a car swerving around on the wrong side of the street against trafic crossing in between bikes. I'm so happy living in northern Sweden with much less trafic. People are getting more agressive though, I have had drivers of cars honk their horns when I cross roads where I had right of way, or driving fast to get over crossings before pedestrians. The snow piles at the side of roads and crossings have been higher than people this winter and drivers don't care, they still drive fast around corners on streets that are missing the curb and some of the road because of the snowpiles. The side of the roads are also more dangerous because of the ice buildup of melting snow so can be very dangerous not to bike in the middle of the street.

Thankfully we have bike roads almost everywhere.

Re: It's Never a Bicycle Accident

#92
post #5

I always tell people I am not a cyclist, I am a bloke who rides a bike. The vilification of a group is how you make harming them palatable to people, and we have all heard the rhetoric surrounding "cyclists". I am far sooner a friend, a son, a partner and someone you know, than a cyclist. I don't even qear lycra, and I spend my whole ride trying to be courteous so at least extend me the same courtesy. Also, get off y…

and we have all heard the rhetoric surrounding "cyclists". Are you saying that not even a smidgen of truth belies such rhetoric? Cyclists roll through signals, intersections & stop signs as if they were mere suggestions and nothing more. I know how entrenched each sides are in this argument - drivers and cyclists. Neither will give an inch. The best way to get cyclists some kind of safety is to INSIST on a full bore…

This is incredible. Starting in reverse,

> And taxes and fees just like for motor vehicles, whether ICE vehicles or electric vehicles

Those taxes and fees are for road upkeep and resurfacing. The fourth power law [0] tells us that bicycles have (if we're being exceedingly generous) a negligible impact, even relative to the average Mazda Miata.

> licensing, registering, insuring framework for cyclists

We have gun licenses, hunting licenses, driving licenses, pilot's licenses, and more. Note that all of the above can and will kill you, or those around you, if practiced unsafely. Per the fine article above, "It's Never a Bicycle Accident" is an astute way of putting it. Shawn Bradley isn't paralyzed because he was cycling unsafely, but because someone else was driving unsafely.

The same point is made regarding insurance: mandatory insurance means if you're in an accident someone else causes, your car isn't totaled or in need of thousands of dollars worth of work that the at-fault party can't pay for. This isn't much of an issue with bicycles though: a car can easily cause thousands in medical bills, but a vehicle is driving away relatively unscathed from any interaction with a cyclist.

> Cyclists roll through signals, intersections & stop signs

We come to a full stop when driving to verify it's safe. If it's safe, there's no penalty for coming to a complete stop. If it's unsafe, we recognize that it takes time and distance to stop your 2-ton vehicle; as such, it's a good thing you were already stopped. Considering cyclists weigh approximately an order of magnitude less, they also take dramatically less time to stop.

Do note that with the above, we're even arguing to your point: the cyclists rolling through signage are simultaneously the worst offenders, and the ones most likely to have their lives altered because of it. While we can say the best drivers can kill someone, the worst cyclists aren't going to kill anyone but themselves.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AASHO_Road_Test

Re: It's Never a Bicycle Accident

#93
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “...I would love it if reckless drivers would lose their license at the first offense.” that’s too punitive, but i’d be quite happy with a quickly escalating, income-/wealth-adjusted fine. so like 0.01% of yearly income on first offense, 0.1% on second offense, 1% on third offense, or something like that, on a rolling 12-month basis, where you can voluntarily give up you license for 3 months to reset the scale of y…

Too punitive? So death sentence is OK for a kid that forgets to put out the arm once? I don't really understand this mentality.

Again, hyperbole helps no-one.

Mistakes may sometimes lead to extreme consequences. A cyclist not indicating and thus experiencing an accident is not much different from someone ignoring safety rules around power tools and getting (badly) hurt by it. The damage is accidental, not punitive.

"Death sentence" in such cases is overly emotional and meant to derail a discussion. It's meant to divide, not unite.

Instead of having such almost pornographic fantasies about crimes and punishments, let's rather invest some energy to determine how we can lower the number of accidents, e.g. by providing better street law education for children who are about to start cycling, and better traffic enforcement.

Re: It's Never a Bicycle Accident

#94
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too punitive? So death sentence is OK for a kid that forgets to put out the arm once? I don't really understand this mentality.

Again, hyperbole helps no-one. Mistakes may sometimes lead to extreme consequences. A cyclist not indicating and thus experiencing an accident is not much different from someone ignoring safety rules around power tools and getting (badly) hurt by it. The damage is accidental, not punitive. "Death sentence" in such cases is overly emotional and meant to derail a discussion. It's meant to divide, not unite. Instead of…

This is the drivers point of view, nowhere do we get the information of what actually happened. Just that the driver said the kids didn't put out the hand when he came in his big car in high speed. Were the kids actually turning or just going straight? Were they crossing the street?

Re: It's Never a Bicycle Accident

#95
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this reason I always try to drive in the center of the lane or even in the left tire-track of a lane when cycling in places without a shoulder or dedicated bike lane; that is, make it clear they can't just scoot past me on the left by taking as much of the lane as possible. That's also super dangerous because car drivers are aggressive dicks who seem to hate anyone on a bike, so I generally won't cycle in places…

Not sure why you're downvoted, I do similar exactly because otherwise cars pass me by a mere few centimetres. If I'm in the middle of the lane, they can't unless they're really set on pushing me off, and then at least I have a buffer of space to my right that I can verve into. If you stick to the side of the road, you make it the default decision for people (many of which I'm sure might not if they knew better) to pa…

Drivers hate cyclists because they're slow, dangerous, usually don't follow rules of the road (regarding stops, traffic lights, right of way, one-way streets) and they can die, or be badly injured, as soon as they get in contact with anything at all for a microsecond.

Cycling in the city is scary because going with a bike in the traffic is straight-up insanity.

Re: It's Never a Bicycle Accident

#96
Cycling is almost one of those politically charged conversations which should be banned from HN. As a bicycle commuter and enthusiast (since somehow cyclist is a dirty word) I’ve long since learned that any online discussion inevitably devolves into a sociopathic blame game.

I will say, however, that cost is one of the primary issues which is rarely addressed. In the USA the dollar is king and it shows in all aspects of our lives.

Compared to automobiles, Bicycles are too cheap for their own good. America would have good cycling infrastructure If bicycles cost $20k to purchase, $5k per year to fuel, $500 to register, $1,500 year to insure and if the bicycling lobby spent hundreds of millions of dollars bribing politicians yearly.

Drivers (why isn’t driver a dirty word?), at least in the USA, have a clear sense of superiority and entitlement which drives (pun intended) their sociopathic behavior. “I spent $50,000 on my Tesla and thousands more on licensing and maintenance! That money gives me the right to get back to my bedroom community in San Mateo as quickly as possible, fuck you and your 2-wheels, i’ll run you over with zero legal consequences” is a common attitude.

The USA will never get dutch-quality cycling infrastructure until bicycle riders spend driver-level money.

Re: It's Never a Bicycle Accident

#97
post #5

I always tell people I am not a cyclist, I am a bloke who rides a bike. The vilification of a group is how you make harming them palatable to people, and we have all heard the rhetoric surrounding "cyclists". I am far sooner a friend, a son, a partner and someone you know, than a cyclist. I don't even qear lycra, and I spend my whole ride trying to be courteous so at least extend me the same courtesy. Also, get off y…

and we have all heard the rhetoric surrounding "cyclists". Are you saying that not even a smidgen of truth belies such rhetoric? Cyclists roll through signals, intersections & stop signs as if they were mere suggestions and nothing more. I know how entrenched each sides are in this argument - drivers and cyclists. Neither will give an inch. The best way to get cyclists some kind of safety is to INSIST on a full bore…

I too, as a regular cyclist, would like to see more cyclists fined when they run red lights, cycle on footpaths, cycle in the wrong direction etc., but enforcement is also lacking for motorists who run red lights, speed, or drive while on the phone. A critical difference is that motorists ignoring traffic law put others at risk, whereas cyclists usually only endanger themselves, if at all.

I don't see how licensing, registering, mandatory insurance etc. will change anything, but make cycling less popular.

Per my understanding, road infrastructure is typically paid from general taxes (obviously depending on country). As cyclists require less road space, cause less road wear and have practically no environmental burden compared to motorists it's probably the case that we pay a disproportionately high percentage of infrastcuture costs.

Re: It's Never a Bicycle Accident

#98

One of the linked accidents in the article looks terrible, a man is cycling along the road, a bus overtakes him and clips his handlebars, knocking him to the ground and then running over his torso with the rear wheels of the bus. What a lot of people don’t realise is that you can’t overtake bicycles in a single lane. If there’s no cycle path/markings a bicycle takes up the full lane for exactly this reason. Bicycles…

The solution to this is fixing local legislation. As a car driver your risk is asymmetric: you will have a few scratches/dents on your car and the other side ends up in hospital (or worse). So, it's important to bias traffic rules to protecting more vulnerable participants like cyclists or pedestrians.

Here are some examples of things that work in various countries:

The Netherlands fixed this ages ago. You hit a cyclist with a car, it's your fault regardless of the circumstances for the insurers. The net result is a country where drivers are very mindful of cyclists and check their right side mirrors before turning right and their left side mirror before 'dooring' a passing cyclist. Failing to do that is expensive and there are so many cyclists that it is in any case a good idea. Besides, nobody wants it on their conscience to have people hospitalized because of inattention, sloppiness, or incompetence.

France at some point introduced a simple traffic rule that states that when over taking cyclists you need to give them a lot of space. So, now you see cars slowing down and overtaking cyclists properly on two lane country roads: i.e. waiting for the left lane to clear and then using that and giving the cyclist at least a meter or so of clearance. It's kind of funny to see that in action but it works. Failing to do that has hefty fines associated with it if you get caught. So drivers actually do this. France has a lot of cyclists on country roads training and getting taken over by cars doing 90 km/hour is not risk free unless they keep their distance. So, a completely sane rule. Any accidents tend to be very nasty. And again, nobody wants that on their conscience anyway.

London introduced fees for entering the downtown area. Unless you have to be there, you'll want to avoid that because it's expensive. It also has cameras all over the place so if you mess up, it will be on camera. That was mainly done for pollution and security reasons but it also made it a safer place to bike around.

Re: It's Never a Bicycle Accident

#99

A lot of comments point out situations with car drivers not being considerate of cyclists. Not to defend car drivers, but you could interchange car drivers with cyclists and cyclists with pedestrians and you would end up with people giving the same anecdotes. You see cyclists speeding through "walk only" areas just as you see cars ignoring bike lanes or giving space to cyclists in general. You'll see just as much peo…

But what is your point? Your whole post is meaningless, it's just useless centrism with fluffy words about "both sides" in order to exonerate drivers.

Re: It's Never a Bicycle Accident

#100
post #5

I always tell people I am not a cyclist, I am a bloke who rides a bike. The vilification of a group is how you make harming them palatable to people, and we have all heard the rhetoric surrounding "cyclists". I am far sooner a friend, a son, a partner and someone you know, than a cyclist. I don't even qear lycra, and I spend my whole ride trying to be courteous so at least extend me the same courtesy. Also, get off y…

and we have all heard the rhetoric surrounding "cyclists". Are you saying that not even a smidgen of truth belies such rhetoric? Cyclists roll through signals, intersections & stop signs as if they were mere suggestions and nothing more. I know how entrenched each sides are in this argument - drivers and cyclists. Neither will give an inch. The best way to get cyclists some kind of safety is to INSIST on a full bore…

You are simply misinformed.

I pay for the infrastructure, it comes from income tax not registration. Yet look how little of my money goes to bicycle infrastructure anyway. Registration typically covers registration administration and sometimes third party insurance levys, different state to state but it almost never covers infrastructure. I also have two cars anyway, every cyclist I know owns a car.

Where I live, bicycle infractions are fineable and also demerit your car license. So no problem there but enforcement.

Of course cyclists can be in the wrong, but riders die when motorists are in the wrong, the stakes aren't the same. Saying cyclists are in the wrong doesn't suddenly make the mistakes equal. We could bicker about this point ad nauseum but motorists are the ones who chose to bring a lethal weapon into the community that day so it's their responsibility to make sure not to kill anyone.

Now this one is controversial and I am sure there are tonnes of selfish cyclists, but when I do anything marginally illegal it is in order to give drivers an easier time or make myself safe. I will pull onto the footpath in order to do a hook turn instead of sitting in the intersection for one example. Technically not illegal here either but motorists assume I am trying to cut ahead.

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