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Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

harpers.org

231–240 of 289 posts

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#231

I didn't read the article completely but from my experience the overselling that's typical in the West is a problem here. Meditation (and now psychedelics) are sold as this wonderful cure to all problems. In yoga and meditation classes a lot of people seemed to feel obliged to feel great and spiritual even though they didn't really feel that way. Same probably in 10 day meditation classes. They get thrown into someth…

Psychedelics are a good analogy. I don't think they are worth much in our culture and carry serious risk for people who are unstable. Even if you find an authentic shaman, you aren't going to have the cultural context to make it worthwhile by flying there over a weekend.

There is also probably not much more dangerous than a very poorly functioning spiritual practice / teacher. The story here about Vipassana is unsurprising to say the least. It is sort of like squatting a 200kg weight with bad form, over and over again for years, but instead of your body you are breaking your consciousness.

The key takeaway is that if you want to pursue this stuff you really need to find a good teacher who you trust.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I'm not being direct enough. In the past, through various practices and substances I experienced what felt like a complete erasure of all rules - if something could be thought, it could be made real. This spun out of control and felt extremely dangerous to me, and scared me to the point of emotional paralysis and near psychosis for months. It was not past trauma that frightened me but a complete unveiling of…

In Zen, meditation under influence is a big no so, I never had experiences like you mentioned. Interacting with hidden layers are considered advanced practice and I'm just entering these levels. To be able to cope with it you both have to be very experienced and very powerful. I still practice with my masters if I'm going to go that deep. Also, tests of death and dissolution is not something you should experience alo…

I work at an ayahuasca retreat center and personally think your practice would be a sort of super weapon when combined with the right medicine. Fully agree with you otherwise- we all carry an incredible amount of hidden traumas and they can very sneakily hold us back from our full potentials.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#233

"Megan spent much of the next three days in her room, trying to concentrate on sensations in her body. Beck sat by her side. “She always had the option to leave,” Beck said. “She wanted to stay. She doubled down. She was trying so hard.” According to Beck, Megan told Hin that she felt like she was going crazy. Hin instructed Megan to focus on her breath. During one meeting, Megan had trouble sitting up, so Hin had he…

It's pretty significant how many people are willing to hurt themselves due to 'social pressure'.

If they were to abandon that pressure they might have a much harder time keeping a routine and proper work out.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#234

"Megan spent much of the next three days in her room, trying to concentrate on sensations in her body. Beck sat by her side. “She always had the option to leave,” Beck said. “She wanted to stay. She doubled down. She was trying so hard.” According to Beck, Megan told Hin that she felt like she was going crazy. Hin instructed Megan to focus on her breath. During one meeting, Megan had trouble sitting up, so Hin had he…

It's pretty significant how many people are willing to hurt themselves due to 'social pressure'.

Or with just a little self understanding and nuance, they could use the groups in the ways that help them, and still maintain healthy boundaries for self-care.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty significant how many people are willing to hurt themselves due to 'social pressure'.

If they were to abandon that pressure they might have a much harder time keeping a routine and proper work out.

Or with just a little self understanding and nuance, they could use the groups in the ways that help them, and still maintain healthy boundaries for self-care.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me set this straight. Your comment is kinda short, but warrants a long answer. First of all, all of my comments are about what I experienced and know as a practitioner and instructor. Please don't take them in the context of the article. There are thousand ways of meditation, and I only know my way with all details. It'd be very irresponsible for me to speculate on something that I do not know. Hidden trauma is n…

I'm largely in agreement, but this: >> Hidden trauma is not something like a faceless blob. It's something you remember, you know, however you didn't realize that it created a trauma with you. Some people will block the memory. Others are aware of it but don't associate it with current feelings, thoughts, or actions, so when asked they will essentially "forget" it and say "no trauma". Yet other forms of trauma form f…

Everything you said is completely right. I personally experienced nearly all of the variants (unforgotten memories, detached emotions, long term, slow trauma, etc.) Some of them were easy, but I'm still struggling with some (That's OK).

However, I want to heavily emphasize that there's no such thing as "poor outcomes are due to poor practice" in our way. I never got that treatment from my masters or my deceased instructor. Same is valid for me. I'd never say something something similar to any of my students.

These students give us all their trust. Their wellbeing is more important than ours during practice and after that. We'd do anything in our capacity to help them, and we have preliminary response protocols if something goes wrong. This brings us to next point of you, which is equally valid.

> I think triage is important, but there is a lot of belief that any practitioner can handle any person.

That's absolutely true. If we sense something is beyond us, we direct our students to medical doctors. If there's an emergency, we directly take them there. Having knowledge of preliminary medical first aid is essential (we have them). Funny thing is, other trainer in my city is an MD. Our master was a field medic.

We neither denounce nor ignore modern medicine. We just can complement in lots of instances or teach people to help themselves. I think it's equally important to know the value and capacity of tradition and accept things evolve and advance.

It's assuring that none of students had any adverse effects or negative events in their life due to practices they made with us. If anything happens, its responsibility is on us, not them. We're showing the way, and we don't have the luxury to make mistakes.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Didn't seem to be much there to misinterpret. edit: also, instead of clarifying what you meant, you doubled down on your claims. That doesn't speak to me of misinterpretation on my part.

Because you ended the comment with an insulting fantasy of me. > Maybe you go through life constantly asserting and believing things that are in no way true....with no experience nor credentials nor having even read any literature to back any of them up... I would have loved to actually engage in a conversation on how vipassana meditation inevitably, whether it's after 8 hours or 8000 hours, leads to disassociation.…

Yeah it seemed weird to me that those got flagged but also in line with a lot of what I read here.

If you have something authoritative to say about meditation, I may read it, but I don’t think you’re off to a good start so far. I’ve been getting the impression that you believe your speculation to be authoritative, which is dishonest and deluded. Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but you’ve yet to say anything that indicates to me I was wrong to say what I said.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#238
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm largely in agreement, but this: >> Hidden trauma is not something like a faceless blob. It's something you remember, you know, however you didn't realize that it created a trauma with you. Some people will block the memory. Others are aware of it but don't associate it with current feelings, thoughts, or actions, so when asked they will essentially "forget" it and say "no trauma". Yet other forms of trauma form f…

I’m in complete agreement, and will add that significant parts of a person’s personality can develop as a mechanism to mask or manage trauma, and that can end up suffusing all of their choices and relationships. A sudden confrontation with this can be completely destabilizing.

I've written a detailed explanation above, but want to address a concern of you:

> A sudden confrontation with this can be completely destabilizing.

Many ways force a confrontation, and that's indeed dangerous. However, it doesn't have to be like that.

Emotions are like onions. They're layered. Slow practice and slow advancement naturally brings practitioners to outer layers of these onions, which are easier to understand, remove and resolve. In our way, you can't get to the next level unless you have the power to do so.

If you have the power, you can remove and solve it. If you can't remove that layer, you don't face with anything. It all happens progressively.

All in all, there's no forced search for battles to fight. Ours is self exploration. You face only what you're ready for. We have safeguards against it.

I'm doing this for ~7 years and I still get to harder levels of the same issues sometimes. It's not easy, but it's worth it.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus' teachings are best understood in their historical, cultural, and geographical context. The superficial analogies that are drawn in the Zen Teachings of Jesus are an ad hoc theory imposed on rather than derived from the teachings of Jesus. It is similar to how some astrologist writers seek to put an astrological spin on the gospels to siphon off some of the star power of Jesus. It's religious parasitism. Jesus…

There's not a good deal of solid literature on it in English that I've found, but contemplative Christian prayer evolved later on. I want to say circa 500 or so. I think today it's primarily found in the Eastern Orthodox churches.

here is a random paper from 1994, back when peer review was still a thing:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3270411?seq=1

it connects silent prayer to Philo, a contemporary of Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo

and it connects silent prayer to early desert fathers, like Clement of Alexandria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thesis seems a high bar for a HN reply. It relates to this thread about gurus, their alleged shadiness, and to the particular school of meditation mentioned multiple times in the OP article. Was I speaking out of turn? Edit: If you want to get your own measure of the character, the evening discourses are freely available, though perhaps disjointed without actually doing or committing to the actual practice. https://w…

I wouldn't go as far as to allege that gurus are "shady". Just that they have their own interest in the game, so they should be taken with a grain of salt. Same applies to more or less to teachers who benefit from ignorance and doctors who benefit from sickness, firemen who profit from fires and policemen who would lose their job if there was no crime. Not to forget priests who abuse the trust of their flock :-) See…

To quote myself, emphasis added:

> alleged shadiness

I can't speak on each and every guru out there, but many do seem to be eager to take your worldly possessions for you own benefit, and much of this is predicated on their self proclaimed enlightenment. The perverse incentives seem like a vacuum for sociopaths to occupy

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