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Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

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Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#211

Post by avtar »

kritiko wrote: post #156
amznbyebyebye wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just have to say what a well thought out response. There is so much caution given in the literature around the need for a teacher or guide who can help the student through these issues when they arise. I remember reading about it in the Munger school texts on Prana and pranic healing.

The problem, as laid out in the article and Willoughby Britton’s work, is that these teachers or guides aren’t trained in psychiatry. Telling somebody who is experiencing psychological distress to meditate through it seems like it can cause harm.

> these teachers or guides aren’t trained in psychiatry

Some are :) https://meditatewithtucker.com/about/ I'm not affiliated with Tucker, just been on retreats with him in the past. I'm sure there are other teachers out there with similar training.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#212

Post by elbear »

yomly wrote: post #201
elbear wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you don't go on retreats and just have a regular daily practice, there could come a point where you experience unusual, unpleasant moments. The explanation might be difficult for you to accept, if you don't accept Buddhist philosophy (if you don't believe in enlightenment, basically). If you are a materialist, you don't believe there is anything else besides matter. You are just your body. Well, at some point…

>Well, at some point during your meditation, you might experience the fact that this world is a construct, a fabrication. But if you don't know how to put it into context, it will feel like nothing, void, nonexistence. This could shock your mind-body system. Without being arrogant or facetious this feels like a truism to me? After all, our sense of self is an emergent property of unfeeling chemical machines. I suppos…

I'm not talking about just the sense of self. I'm talking about the fact that the world is an illusion.

In any case, I may not be conveying the message properly, because I'm still trying to understand these things conceptually.

The book I mentioned does a far better job with this.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#213

Post by phkahler »

bayindirh wrote: post #167
phkahler wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Coming to your point, these breaks are caused by being faced with these traumas unprepared or without someone to support you. Unfortunately that can't be proved. When reading the article I got the impression the woman might have unearthed such a thing. Maybe she had a hidden shame. Someone even asked about it, but she never told what it was. Maybe there wasn't anything to work through and meditation can cause prob…

Let me set this straight. Your comment is kinda short, but warrants a long answer. First of all, all of my comments are about what I experienced and know as a practitioner and instructor. Please don't take them in the context of the article. There are thousand ways of meditation, and I only know my way with all details. It'd be very irresponsible for me to speculate on something that I do not know. Hidden trauma is n…

I'm largely in agreement, but this:

>> Hidden trauma is not something like a faceless blob. It's something you remember, you know, however you didn't realize that it created a trauma with you.

Some people will block the memory. Others are aware of it but don't associate it with current feelings, thoughts, or actions, so when asked they will essentially "forget" it and say "no trauma". Yet other forms of trauma form from years of subtle mistreatment and can not be traced to a specific event - only through extensive work can that be pieced together.

The subconscious can be a minefield, and to say poor outcomes are due to poor practice is almost as bad as victim blaming. I think triage is important, but there is a lot of belief that any practitioner can handle any person. I think that's false even with the best of them.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#214

Post by potatoman22 »

squidlogic wrote: post #208
rafaelvasco wrote: post #206

Meditation doesn't bring psychological problems. If you already have then, it exarcebates them. Bring them more into focus. Don't start meditation practices if you have: Traumas, PTSTD, COD, etc. Meditation is the ultimate introspection practice. It's not a relaxation practive, though it can give that after effect. You will dive deep within yourself, and if you have some "monsters" stored deep, you will face them fac…

From the article: "Some clinicians believe that meditation can cause psychological problems in people without underlying conditions, and that even forty minutes of meditation per day can pose risks. In 1975, The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease published the case study of a thirty-eight-year-old woman, Mrs. M., who had no history of trauma or psychotic episodes but had begun to experience “altered reality testin…

Given that this was just a case study and we don't have explanations for why TM alone would cause this, it seems the simplest answer is that TM can exacerbate underlying conditions.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#215

Post by potatoman22 »

rafaelvasco wrote: post #210
squidlogic wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: "Some clinicians believe that meditation can cause psychological problems in people without underlying conditions, and that even forty minutes of meditation per day can pose risks. In 1975, The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease published the case study of a thirty-eight-year-old woman, Mrs. M., who had no history of trauma or psychotic episodes but had begun to experience “altered reality testin…

Most will disagree with me but: Those "waking fantasies" are the result of dilligent meditation. They occur because the brain activates some senses which aren't normally used. But as mainstream Science knows little about them, they're treated as "psychosis" and "fantasies". I can't say about her case specifically, but overall, I can assure you, they're not. But the thing is, the proof can't be shown. It must be exper…

How are these activated senses different from our normal senses? How do they differ from psychosis?

Could you offer some terms used to describe them so I could look more into this subject?

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#216

Post by TaylorSwift »

rafaelvasco wrote: post #210
squidlogic wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: "Some clinicians believe that meditation can cause psychological problems in people without underlying conditions, and that even forty minutes of meditation per day can pose risks. In 1975, The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease published the case study of a thirty-eight-year-old woman, Mrs. M., who had no history of trauma or psychotic episodes but had begun to experience “altered reality testin…

Most will disagree with me but: Those "waking fantasies" are the result of dilligent meditation. They occur because the brain activates some senses which aren't normally used. But as mainstream Science knows little about them, they're treated as "psychosis" and "fantasies". I can't say about her case specifically, but overall, I can assure you, they're not. But the thing is, the proof can't be shown. It must be exper…

What are waking fantasies? Can you describe that a little more?

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#217

Post by apatters »

apatters wrote: post #91

People are usually attracted to various meditative practices because they want to change the way their brain works. There is a large degree of overlap between traditional meditation and psychotherapies based on mindfulness and CBT. The efficacy of these therapies is grounded in a strong and growing body of research (this includes research into their risks). Why not dispense with the woo and approach healing the mind…

I like how the meditation cultists were happy to downvote this but couldn't actually formulate a response. Proves my point.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#218

Post by squidlogic »

"Megan spent much of the next three days in her room, trying to concentrate on sensations in her body. Beck sat by her side. “She always had the option to leave,” Beck said. “She wanted to stay. She doubled down. She was trying so hard.” According to Beck, Megan told Hin that she felt like she was going crazy. Hin instructed Megan to focus on her breath. During one meeting, Megan had trouble sitting up, so Hin had her lie down. When Megan clenched her fists, Hin told her to focus on the feeling in her hands. “Yanny had no sense of this being anything that she couldn’t teach her way out of,” Beck told me. When Megan got agitated, “the instruction was always the same: close your eyes, go back to meditating.” (Yanny Hin declined to be interviewed for this story.)"

This reminded me of my experience at a crossfit gym. I never once heard the instructors tell anyone to stop going even if they were likely to hurt themselves by continuing.

Sure you can get up and leave the WOD whenever you want, but that social pressure is likely to push adherents beyond what they would normally do. This can be good if nothing goes wrong, but it can also mask preexisting issues or issues that arise from the practice itself.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#220

Post by seigando »

prophesi wrote: post #195
seigando wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not my job to read or reread my comments for you. If you have trouble asking questions, that's on you.

Sorry, I didn't respond to your list of questions because you misread my claim in the first place.

Really? Didn't seem to be much there to misinterpret.

edit: also, instead of clarifying what you meant, you doubled down on your claims. That doesn't speak to me of misinterpretation on my part.

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