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Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

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Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#191
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be useful to speculate, but I think you're not that familiar with what meditation in the Abrahamic religions looks like. Meditation in the biblical sense is to think deeply about something. Meditation in the eastern religion sense is to not think about anything. Those two are basically polar opposites and the psychological / neurological effects of the latter cannot be achieved by practising the former. (vario…

in contrast this the Christian raised Buddhist scholar Kenneth S Leong would juxtapose his analysis that Jesus' teachings were indeed like Zen teachings and that Jesus' form of prayer was the silent prayer very much equivalent to Eastern meditation. book: kenneth s leong the zen teachings of jesus https://g.co/kgs/79Znnu the silent prayer was also.identified with the "desert fathers" who have shaped much if the found…

Jesus' teachings are best understood in their historical, cultural, and geographical context. The superficial analogies that are drawn in the Zen Teachings of Jesus are an ad hoc theory imposed on rather than derived from the teachings of Jesus. It is similar to how some astrologist writers seek to put an astrological spin on the gospels to siphon off some of the star power of Jesus. It's religious parasitism.

Jesus adhered to the Hebrew religion and comfortably stayed within that tradition. His emphasis on 'silent' prayer, was simply in contradistinction to the hypocritical performative prayer of certain religious leaders that did not come from pure motives. The reason why prayer was silent, was not because it was in any way meant to be a mystical eastern style meditative experience leading to some kind of emotional ecstasy or zen or any other psychological manifestation, but rather because it was meant to emphasise the true goal of prayer i.e. maintaining a personal relationship with God through verbal communication.

Believers were encouraged to approach God like they would a friend or father and speak to him about their lives and not consider their human needs too lowly to concern a deity. Eastern meditation on the other hand is characterised by emptying of the mind, the polar opposite of how Jesus taught his disciples to pray. Jews and Christians throughout history have believed that on the other end of a prayer is a personal God who is responsive to our petitions whereas buddhism has no concept of a personal God but instead concerns itself merely with the human mind. For Jews and Christians the efficacy or power is not in the act of praying, but in the voluntary act of God. For Zen buddhists the efficacy or power is inherent in the act of meditation.

Communal prayer was still considered appropriate and was encouraged, Jesus just didn't want anyone showing off to their religious friends as a means to gain status without truly caring about God, His righteousness, etc.

Prayer by itself was also not considered a method to discover truth. There is a heavy emphasis on seeking truth in the study of the word of God which runs throughout Jesus' teachings, which was already present in Judaism and continues to this day in Christianity. The desert fathers, as well as mystical sects in judaism and islam are outliers, and their religious practices are amalgamations of mystical traditions of other religions with their respective host religion (christianity, islam, judaism). Theirs is a religious phenomenology that draws on the religious verbiage and concepts of a familiar religion, without concerning itself with the authoritative source of said religion, but rather with seeking a mystical experience.

It is not just literalists and evangelicals that consider eastern style meditation and associated religious concepts as foreign to mainstream historical christianity and judaism, it's most reputable scholars in the fields of NT studies, Church History, etc.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how you explain to me how it's unhealthy to assume you know more than others right after assuming that you know more than me on this topic.

I'm not assuming. You've demonstrated your knowledge on the subject.

We're this far into the thread and you've yet to tell me why I'm so wrong, and why you're the guru.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not assuming. You've demonstrated your knowledge on the subject.

We're this far into the thread and you've yet to tell me why I'm so wrong, and why you're the guru.

It's not my job to read or reread my comments for you. If you have trouble asking questions, that's on you.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#194
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be useful to speculate, but I think you're not that familiar with what meditation in the Abrahamic religions looks like. Meditation in the biblical sense is to think deeply about something. Meditation in the eastern religion sense is to not think about anything. Those two are basically polar opposites and the psychological / neurological effects of the latter cannot be achieved by practising the former. (vario…

> Meditation in the eastern religion sense is to not think about anything. I'm not completely sure about this. Certainly it is to do with letting go of ruminations, worries and distracting thoughts. But there is a lot of talk about focus and insight, and this seems similar to the western concept of meditation.

I'm using coarse / imprecise language for brevity. Certainly in eastern meditation there is a lot of reflection being done on the meditative experiences and their import or significance, which can lead to perceived insight. However, such reflection (as the word implies) is post hoc.

Similarly, the focus that meditation requires is a discipline of not getting distracted by the outside world or by the sea of thoughts and emotions that resides in our mind, but it is not a focus on any particular idea or concept. Rather, it is a focus on (achieving) a certain state of mind or experience.

Meditation in the Biblical sense is deliberative, logical, active and always involves freely thinking about a certain topic or set of ideas. It does not seek to constrain/limit itself beyond the level of focus required for reading a book, for example. Meditation in the eastern sense seeks to 'transcend' logic and emotion and does not require or depend on any logical or emotional processes. Actually, logical and emotional processes hinder meditation.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're this far into the thread and you've yet to tell me why I'm so wrong, and why you're the guru.

It's not my job to read or reread my comments for you. If you have trouble asking questions, that's on you.

Sorry, I didn't respond to your list of questions because you misread my claim in the first place.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it correct to equate Zikr with meditation. To wit, your "Nor is there a reason to for the layman interested in the relaxation of the mind" underlines that fact. Zikr (remembrance of God's names and attributes) is highly recommended to all Muslims in the Qur'an, officially rated at being higher than prayer. It's not about "mind hacking". It is closer to Zen's "oxherding" purpose. > First off all, not by…

> I don't think it correct to equate Zikr with meditation. Maybe I am missing something, but Zikr sounds suspiciously like japa ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa ), which is a well accepted form of concentration meditation in all Dharmic traditions. Many teachers will ask neophytes to have a regular japa practice, where you recite a mantra a certain number of times often with the help of a mAlA, first audibly, and…

Zikr is “remembrance of God”. Typical “mantras” are specific names of God, as given by the Pir (elder) to the seeker/neophyte.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhikr

So of course, Zikr is a subset of general contemplation and given the universality of human body and psyche, you will find shared elements (such as seating, lowering & raising of head/gaze, and the big one, breathing) in various methodologies of contemplation across cultures, religions, and schools. This is to be expected and is natural.

In a sense, one could possibly say that Meditation aimed towards mastering the mind, whereas Zikr aims for breaking the imaginal boundary of lower self (i.e. aims for Unity of Selves harmonized by “Names”) by being fully focused and mindful of ‘The One’. Chanting Om is quite close to the effect.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#197
post #140
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. “The Bible” is not one text and is actually a collection of books each written by different people at different times over the course of centuries. Most of these books were written before Jesus was even born. 2. The books probably relevant to this discussion—the Gospels—are generally believed to have been written before the turn of the first century. Some argue that Mark and Luke were written as early as the 50s,…

the path from oral tradition in some languages (Aramaic, hebrew, then also greek and latin) to writeups in various languages (greek, latin, then some hebrew) to what we happen to hold in our hands today is a bumpy ride, which in and by itself makes clear that "the bible" is a temporary and local consensus which has changed in the past and will evolve in the future. the books we see today are translations of heavily c…

That's a common misconception that perhaps Ehrmann deliberately pushes. He himself says that no core doctrines of Christianity were changed by the variants and that the books we have today are essentially the same as the originals, though not word for word identical.[1]

Few who cast unwarranted doubt upon the New Testament realize how extremely sceptical they would have to be about every other piece of ancient writing, because none of them even comes close to the new testament in terms of: 1) number of copies 2) being written close to the time of the actual events

[1] https://crossexamined.org/is-the-new-testament-reliable-erhm...

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Per Hindu practices, Meditation is the first, foremost step towards self realization. Isn't it 7th stage or something? In yogic philosophies. Admittedly don't know lot about these stuff.

You are correct (see the Wikipedia article). Meditation was - and is - not a practice that beginners on the spiritual path would engage with in traditional Yoga or Buddhist practices. The problem is that these practices were taken out of their context (stationary secluded environments like ashrams or secretive groups of wandering mendicants) and commercialized by the West in general and by snake-oil vending gurus in…

Yeah, moreso for Yoga because it would look cool like gymnastics.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#199
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the past, through various practices and substances If you don't mind, could you mention what practices and substances are you referring to?

Mindfulness meditation as taught by Thich Nhat Hanh; pieced together practices from dozens of other meditation books. Lots of reading in philosophy. Some limited study of the occult and magick. Ritualistic psytrance parties; LSD and mushrooms.

Somehow this comes across to me like you tried to fuck your reality up.

I'm very curious on what was your main goal to achive?

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your thesis here? It looks like you just want us to like this Goenka person.

Thesis seems a high bar for a HN reply. It relates to this thread about gurus, their alleged shadiness, and to the particular school of meditation mentioned multiple times in the OP article. Was I speaking out of turn? Edit: If you want to get your own measure of the character, the evening discourses are freely available, though perhaps disjointed without actually doing or committing to the actual practice. https://w…

I wouldn't go as far as to allege that gurus are "shady". Just that they have their own interest in the game, so they should be taken with a grain of salt. Same applies to more or less to teachers who benefit from ignorance and doctors who benefit from sickness, firemen who profit from fires and policemen who would lose their job if there was no crime. Not to forget priests who abuse the trust of their flock :-)

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Hell_(film)

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