Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

vice.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 124 posts

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#101

Post by dbg31415 »

tombert wrote: post #71
dbg31415 wrote: post #53

> When your stuff breaks, you should be able to fix it yourself. This concept is inherently flawed. These complex devices were built by teams of highly skilled and specialized engineers. The concept that you should be able to repair it with a screwdriver and a 6-pack is outdated. I grew up on a cattle ranch, and we had lots of tractors and equipment -- some of it over 100 years old. I rebuilt an International Farmall…

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does your argument reduce down to "some people could possibly do things wrong, therefore we should give monopoly-power to Apple to fix our products, and trust that they won't overcharge us"?

I do think it's fair for Apple to say, "Hey, we can't ensure this device is properly repaired unless we are the ones to repair it." Maybe some sort of "Apple-certified repair place" program... I think that exists today. I don't think Apple should be forced to sell raw parts; it's not part of their business model. You're free to buy more modular hardware... things you can easily repair. That's a selling point, right? But Apple should be free to do business however they want to do business. You're free not to buy Apple products, but you shouldn't be free, as a consumer, to insist they make schematics and parts available. You can choose to support companies that sell parts if you want! (=

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leFuF-zoVzA - seems about as good as you can hope for. Pretty sure Apple isn't keen on "DIY" for their brand.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#102

Post by autorepair »

Nextgrid wrote: post #68
kevbin wrote: post #38

> Connecticut, Colorado, Delaware, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Missouri, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Oklahoma, Oregon, and Washington state are all considering broad [right-to-repair] laws that would apply to most of the stuff we use everyday. Meanwhile, in Sacramento, it is illegal to repair your own car at your own home. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26421495

This is a bit misleading. The Sacramento regulation appears to be about zoning to dissuade commercial repair operations on residential grounds. This is bad, but is not really "anti repair" any more than not being allowed to operate a bar/food service business out of your own home.

Unfortunately the law is more draconian. The FAQ of the law provided by a comment below says

1. only minor repairs are explicitly allowed 2. only using tools found in a typical household. 3. it lists specific examples of what is allowed (brakes, oil, tire changes) and says all repairs must be like that 4. Must be in an enclosed space if the repair takes more than 24 hours (so no restoring an old beauty on your private driveway).

Pretty much only trivial fixes are allowed.

https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autore...

https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autore...

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#103

Post by dbg31415 »

LocalH wrote: post #79
dbg31415 wrote: post #53

> When your stuff breaks, you should be able to fix it yourself. This concept is inherently flawed. These complex devices were built by teams of highly skilled and specialized engineers. The concept that you should be able to repair it with a screwdriver and a 6-pack is outdated. I grew up on a cattle ranch, and we had lots of tractors and equipment -- some of it over 100 years old. I rebuilt an International Farmall…

>The concept that you should be able to repair it with a screwdriver and a 6-pack is outdated. Nobody is saying that. Right to repair is basically the right for independent repair shops to even be able to acquire the equipment and parts necessary to do repairs. If an individual has the capital, and wishes to perform their own repairs, then yes that is an option . Apple prevents you from taking two brand new authentic…

Because a phone is more than just parts and software. There's knowledge and training required to take it apart and put it back together correctly. And in something as simple as swapping out the cameras, you're taking the case apart, unplugging wires, undoing tape, maybe even some glue... and all of that is still under Apple Warranty.

Do you really want Apple Care to be more of a pain? I love that you can go in... even when you like drop the device... and be like, "Hey can you replace this?" They've got great support. If you force them to start covering all the stuff people home-repair too... oof. Guarantee that experience of having great care goes away as they have to cover their ass from people who broke their devices while trying to repair them.

Anyway, Apple is a bad example... Apple Care is great, and fairly cheap.

John Deere is a bad example... because of reliability and safety concerns from non-professionals doing repairs.

Give me a good example? A non-computerized vacuum? Most all of those systems are easy enough to repair without a law.

Some of the "right to repair" laws I've seen seem to imply you need to make it so the battery is easy to swap in and out without tools. Oof, like I don't want that phone that has a battery that comes out / isn't water proof / is an inch thick. I had those in the 90s / 00s. I don't want to go back to that.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#104

Post by dbg31415 »

pbasista wrote: post #84
dbg31415 wrote: post #53

> When your stuff breaks, you should be able to fix it yourself. This concept is inherently flawed. These complex devices were built by teams of highly skilled and specialized engineers. The concept that you should be able to repair it with a screwdriver and a 6-pack is outdated. I grew up on a cattle ranch, and we had lots of tractors and equipment -- some of it over 100 years old. I rebuilt an International Farmall…

> The concept that you should be able to repair it with a screwdriver and a 6-pack is outdated. I agree. But no one asks for that. It is my understanding that the "right to repair" initiative, as presented by Louis Rossmann, only asks that the people who are willing to do the repair themselves are able to get the replacement parts, the tools (e.g. custom screwdrivers, flash programmers ...) and the expertise (e.g. sc…

> Consider the availability of schematics for MacBooks, for example. They are not available officially. But it is possible to get them via shady channels. The operation of such channels is risky because it is often illegal. But it is nevertheless being done because there is a large demand for it.

If you buy a BMW, you drive all around town and get told by auto places, "Hey I don't work on BMWs." You end up taking it to a dealer, or an approved repair place. I don't see why a phone or tractor or anything else should be different.

If you want something that's got modular parts / open schematics... make that a consideration when buying. It comes off as, "We want a premium product, but we don't want to pay a premium repair price or use approved parts... rather just sort of have it be an Apple case with Bubba's MacBook Repair & Tackle Shop approved parts... and Bubba can warranty the labor." Oof.

Apple is pretty up front with their products, if you buy an Apple product odds are if it ever needs to be serviced you'll have to take it to an Apple Store. AND... the kicker... they have great service.

A schematic isn't enough. Like you'd have to provide order of operations for disassembly (at least some training), odds are tolerances for glue / tape removal, etc. Doesn't seem unreasonable for Apple to say, "Hey we make a premium product, and we're the only ones with expertise in the care of that product. If you don't want an Apple laptop, you're free to buy Bubba's DIY Laptop built with 100% Organic Duct Tape!" And plenty of PCs went that route in the 90s / 00s. Open architecture was a selling point.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#105

Post by m463 »

Ccecil wrote: post #58

I remember back when I was young opening up an older stereo my parents had and right inside was the schematic and wiring diagram for the whole machine. My father had a shop manual for his 1962 Ford Thunderbird and not only did it tell you how to fix it but it also showed how to make any needed "special tools" for the car. I am not saying every single thing in the world is going to be user serviced...but it is a shame…

If you look at the documentation for the purism phone, you'll find some interesting things, like how to take apart the phone and how to flash the os.

EDIT: also https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/_downloads/librem5_evergre...

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#106

Post by Ccecil »

ekianjo wrote: post #87
Ccecil wrote: post #58

I remember back when I was young opening up an older stereo my parents had and right inside was the schematic and wiring diagram for the whole machine. My father had a shop manual for his 1962 Ford Thunderbird and not only did it tell you how to fix it but it also showed how to make any needed "special tools" for the car. I am not saying every single thing in the world is going to be user serviced...but it is a shame…

> f we continue to allow qualified users to be stifled by DRM for the sake of increasing profits through planned obsolecence we are going to see greatly increased levels of ecological damage and waste. Waste is one concern but there is also a hidden cost. Every curious person that we prevent from opening up or fixing their machine contributes to a net loss of innovation in the long run.

Absolutely...that is a big part of things as well. Every less tinkerer is one less inventor/innovator.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#107

Post by minikites »

nomel wrote: post #99
minikites wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a problem for Apple. Why is it a problem for consumers?

I imagine the used market would be flooded with "iPhones" filled with non-genuine parts. Non genuine parts often don't interact well with things like firmware updates.

So by this logic all automobiles should only be serviced by the manufacturer. Somehow I think we'd manage to figure something out for a product that is orders of magnitude less dangerous than an automobile.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#108

Post by dogma1138 »

freedom42 wrote: post #63
intricatedetail wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classic WD. So you dodged a bullet. I had WD drive that USB board failed and that board contained encryption key. So I lost data even if I could install the board from other drive. And they had a nerve to advertise this as a feature pro consumer! (It encrypted the data even if you didn't turn encryption on)

Wow that's actually really sad. Imagine that happening to people without backups (means many regular people). The way I do it is I format the drive on Linux. Then format it as ext4 with LUKS encryption. Were you on Windows?

The encryption is transparent, the key is stored on a security coprocessor if the encryption isn’t “turned on” the key simply isn’t encrypted with a KEK which is derived from your password.

Sometimes the default key is also all zeros/ones until the user has initialized the encryption function at which a random key is generated and encrypted with a KEK.

W/E you format the drive with or too or how you use it doesn’t matter, you don’t have raw access to drives anymore (sectors, clusters etc don’t mean anything anymore) with or without encryption the controller basically emulates an “ideal drive” to the OS and does it’s own thing.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#109

Post by dogma1138 »

ziml77 wrote: post #51
intricatedetail wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classic WD. So you dodged a bullet. I had WD drive that USB board failed and that board contained encryption key. So I lost data even if I could install the board from other drive. And they had a nerve to advertise this as a feature pro consumer! (It encrypted the data even if you didn't turn encryption on)

That's some serious bullshit logic from them. What the fuck does encryption do if the key is stored right next to the drive?

The key is always stored with the data either on the drive itself in an unencrypted hidden partition or on an attached storage/security coprocessor.

The key is encrypted with a KEK which is derived from a users password.

What many of these encrypted drives do is just always run the encryption but with either a default key which is all zeros or with an unencrypted key until the user enrolls into the encryption feature at which point the key will be encrypted with their password or fingerprint.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#110

Post by [deleted] »

jackcviers3 wrote: post #86
1-6 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, Tesla is starting to build their battery packs in-frame so it'll become harder to repair. https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery-pack...

This is so backwards. If they want electric cars to dominate, they need interchangeable, standardized batteries that can be swapped out by machines at gas stations just like stopping for gas. You'll never have batteries that charge quickly enough for a cross-country trip and have range.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN