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The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

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Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#31

Post by beckingz »

gpm wrote: post #23
hedgew wrote: post #2

OODA loop is often hyped, but really it is just a description of how humans (and animals) behave in almost any situation. "Look, Think, Decide, Act" in other words. It's not valuable in the sense that you can "practice" or "apply" the loop and perform better. Your behavior already follows this model. Its real value probably came from presenting this common decision making process in a way that appealed to upper milit…

I've never been in an organization that needs this sort of model, but my assumption was it was more about what not to do. Don't second guess yourself endlessly, don't panic, don't reminisce about what could have been, don't blindly repeat your last action, don't freeze, etc. In high stress situations people tend to do dumb things, this sounds to me like an attempt to say "don't do that" without saying the word "don't…

Sufficiently large organizations easily panic, second guess themselves, etc.

Formalizing the decision making process helps get to the point where you can make a decision. In risk averse organizations, this is extremely valuable.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#32

Post by angry_octet »

joosters wrote: post #27

Before stating *how* fighter pilots make fast and accurate decisions, surely we need to study *if* fighter pilots make fast and accurate decisions? I mean, do they really? What evidence is there that pilots are great, or even above average, decision makers?

What we can say is that, in the engagement scenarios we believe are likely, certain pilots are better than others. And by better I mean that the opponent dies.

It is true that a computer will sometimes come up with stronger responses, even against strong human players, but it usually does this by choosing certain death for some of the pilots. While human pilots do accept certain death directions in combat (for example, to defend a high value asset like a trip transport), that still likely means that the planner failed. It's going to be interesting when we have robot planes; not only can they pull 10Gs for >10s, they can do it very quickly, and you can commit them to high risk engagements.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#33

Post by JshWright »

arethuza wrote: post #9
hedgew wrote: post #2

OODA loop is often hyped, but really it is just a description of how humans (and animals) behave in almost any situation. "Look, Think, Decide, Act" in other words. It's not valuable in the sense that you can "practice" or "apply" the loop and perform better. Your behavior already follows this model. Its real value probably came from presenting this common decision making process in a way that appealed to upper milit…

Pretty sure I have met people who tended to do "Act, Look, Think, Decide" in that order! i.e. Do something daft, look at what they had done, think about the consequences and decide whether to admit to the mistake ;-)

As long as you keep the "act" small in scale (and you continue to loop through the steps), this is probably the best approach in most circumstances. If for no other reason than is break you out of the initial tendency many people have to freeze when confronted with crisis.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#34

Post by dheera »

nateberkopec wrote: post #7

For anyone interested in OODA, the Robert Coram biography of John Boyd, and "Certain to Win" by the Boyd disciple Chet Richards are good entry points. The value of OODA isn't really in providing a model for individual-level decisionmaking. The value is as a model for intra-organizational conflict: that one obtains strategic advantage (i.e. tempo) by running through one's OODA loop faster than competitors or opponents…

I'm unclear as to what's novel about OODA. Can someone give me an alternative model for context?

It seems like all other permutations, e.g. DOAO or ADOO or DOOA wouldn't make sense, so what is the "eureka" about OODA?

Also, separately, it just sounds to me like perception (OO), planning (D), control (A) renamed so I'm still not seeing what's novel about it.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#35

Post by dingosity »

As it turns out, John Boyd went to flight school w/ my dad and we saw quite a bit of him when they were both working on the F-15 program. I still literally have the scars.

OODA by itself is simplistic, but it was part of a larger presentation called "Patterns of Conflict," and you should probably look at that presentation before deciding what OODA means.

I found a printed copy from my dad's records that's not quite as long as the one I found online (and heck, maybe there are later versions available as well.)

Anyway... it might be useful to read this to get an idea of the original context of the "OODA Loop."

https://geekboss.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/patterns-of-... [I have no affiliation w/ geekboss. they were just the first hit when i searched "patterns of conflict presentation"]

Also, here's "Destruction and Creation," which was more popular among staff officers I came in contact with. http://www.goalsys.com/books/documents/DESTRUCTION_AND_CREAT...

There are a lot of "applying OODA to business" type blog posts and presentations. I'm not sure I'm qualified to evaluate their value, but for me, getting the extra context of what was going on in the Air Force in the early 70s into the 80s was useful in understanding the meaning and intent of what Boyd wrote about "OODA."

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#36

Post by beaconstudios »

The OODA loop is just entry-level cybernetics; it describes a single (negative/balancing/homeostatic) feedback loop. Knowing OODA is a good start for learning about the mechanics of self correcting systems but for some reason cybernetics doesn't come up often in association with it. It's like learning how to code a todo list but not knowing that more advanced programs are possible because you're not aware that what you're doing is a small part of a whole field called "programming".

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#37

Post by mamon »

WJW wrote: post #14
hedgew wrote: post #2

OODA loop is often hyped, but really it is just a description of how humans (and animals) behave in almost any situation. "Look, Think, Decide, Act" in other words. It's not valuable in the sense that you can "practice" or "apply" the loop and perform better. Your behavior already follows this model. Its real value probably came from presenting this common decision making process in a way that appealed to upper milit…

While I agree that the OODA loop is most often presented as a (fairly obvious) decision model for individuals, the model itself is not the big idea. Rather, the primary value comes from the realization that in a competition (like war, or business, or sports, etc) between two or more individuals/groups the ones who can "cycle through" the OODA loop will be able to adapt faster and often gain the upper hand through sup…

> delegate your decision making to the lowest possible level [...] this will make the average decision slightly worse.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Information going up the chain of command will always be a bit outdated, distorted, and incomplete (unless you can just live-stream video with sound to your command center). So with properly trained soldiers decisions made at lower level can actually be better than those made by higher-ups.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#38

Post by dingosity »

nateberkopec wrote: post #7

For anyone interested in OODA, the Robert Coram biography of John Boyd, and "Certain to Win" by the Boyd disciple Chet Richards are good entry points. The value of OODA isn't really in providing a model for individual-level decisionmaking. The value is as a model for intra-organizational conflict: that one obtains strategic advantage (i.e. tempo) by running through one's OODA loop faster than competitors or opponents…

Yeah. I really liked Coram's biography. John Boyd was a family friend when I was growing up at Eglin and Andrews. I can confirm he was "a bit wild" -- even more-so than my dad, who was nicknamed "The Lesser Santini"

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#39

Post by la6471 »

WJW wrote: post #18
nateberkopec wrote: post #7

For anyone interested in OODA, the Robert Coram biography of John Boyd, and "Certain to Win" by the Boyd disciple Chet Richards are good entry points. The value of OODA isn't really in providing a model for individual-level decisionmaking. The value is as a model for intra-organizational conflict: that one obtains strategic advantage (i.e. tempo) by running through one's OODA loop faster than competitors or opponents…

Indeed. The OODA loop model describes how you can win a competition by responding to a changing situation on the battlefield faster than your opponent. The Lean Startup describes basically the same thing but for civilian companies, and where the opponent is "the market" rather than a more well defined enemy. "The Art of Action" by Stephen Bungay is also a very good book on this subject.

Unfortunately people bring this hyper competitive mentality in meetings and other situations where collaboration would be more beneficial than competition. I am specifically referring to the impulse some people have in making quick decisions without due diligence , just to stay in charge or for other ulterior motives. And when the majority acts like that more reasonable voices gets drowned in the din. While heathy competition is good we also need to be vigilant about not taking it too far to the point where we lose the way.

Re: The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions

#40

Post by goliatone »

vz8 wrote: post #29

On a longer timeframe, PDCA (Plan-Do-Check-Act) / PDSA (Plan-Do-Study-Act) models[0] are common, and I run into them frequently in non-profit social/community work. The "Do" part of the cycle is frequently misunderstood, it's more of a test. I've found PDSA to be challenging with developers, with a tendency to want to short-circuit the process and leap intuitively to the "solution" at the end of the cycle. Talented,…

PDCA sounds to me like it would fit with the agile scrum cycle of plan, sprint, review and retro? I would not be surprised if scrum is just repackaging
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