On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#41

Post by TrispusAttucks » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:34 PM UTC

corty wrote: post #3

While I can appreciate the author's nostalgia, I cannot really agree on some of the criticism: The manure problem is a problem at any size of farm, the amount of manure per cow is somewhat constant. So concentrating all the cows in some factory farm doesn't really make anything worse as long as the total number of cows is somewhat constant. The undocumented immigrant labour problem isn't as big a problem as the famil…

This logic seems wrong.

By definition pollution is a problem of location and concentration.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#42

Post by corty » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:39 PM UTC

ilikerashers wrote: post #30

gizmondo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Owning slaves was also done for generations, so not sure what your point is. Both are bad, but according to my values exploiting children is somewhat worse than exploiting adults, yes.

Do you classify helping with chores around the house as child exploitation too? As on a farm, kids have chores. They're not working night and day.

Chores around a house are an educational tool and may be considered beneficial. On a farm, you get lots of additional "chores" on top. Where the "chores" are hard labour, often dangerous, at times early in the morning before school and in an amount where you do replace paid workers. A household does work without a child doing chores. A family farm won't be profitable without the free labour from the children. There is a reason farming families do have a larger number of children compared to the average. And while, yes, it has been this way for millenia, times change. If it weren't on a farm, with the same amount of "chores", child protection would get involved in an instant.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#43

Post by arethuza » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:40 PM UTC

jansan wrote: post #16

jeromenerf wrote: post #12

Is it even worth it to make cheese anywhere else than France, Switzerland and Italy mountains?

I have relatives who run an organic farm, which is rather large and industrialized for a farm that has the official German "bio" label. They make their own cheese as a side business, but it is only sold locally. This way they can charge a higher price and there are no middlemen, so it is profitable. But I doubt this would scale.

We were on holiday in France skiing for a week once and the hotel dinner included 4 different local cheeses each night - none were repeated of the course of a week.

It wasn't exactly a smart hotel (2* I think) but the food was sublime.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#44

Post by ilikerashers » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:45 PM UTC

corty wrote: post #37

ilikerashers wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On family farms (and my own), manure is used as fertilizer. On factory farms most manure is disposed of and animals fed on grain. Children of parents on a family farm is hardly exploitation. Paying illegal immigrants sub minimum wage to squeeze additional profit out of the land certainly is a bigger problem. Do we need industrial farming if it's driven by big capital? If the industry is happy to damage the environmen…

> Children of parents on a family farm is hardly exploitation. How so? I know it often isn't against labor laws because there are specific exceptions for exactly that case. But in any other circumstance the same thing _is_ considered exploitative.

Answered below but there is a difference between a full time job and doing chores around a farm.

If you can't see the nuance in that then I suggest you visit a family farm some day.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#45

Post by voidmain0001 » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:51 PM UTC

urthor wrote: post #27

On one point the article has made. Canadians are really really unhappy with their milk system, they have some of the highest priced milk in the entire world and they despise it. "probably through a supply management program similar to what Canada has" is a nonstarter for cityfolk. It would mean $4 milk.

From my perspective (being Canadian, and having enough money to purchase milk) the price is fine with me. No one in my family drinks milk. My kids have it with cereal, and I use it for cooking. A price of $5 CDN for 4L of regular milk, and $9 CDN for 4L of organic milk is just high enough to ensure that it is drunk in moderation. Using Walmart, I chose Plano, TX and the price of 1 gallon of Walmart brand milk costs $2.41 USD which converts to $3.05 CDN so Canadians pay a $2 premium. I purchase 4L every 2 weeks, so I pay $48 more per year to have a milk system that benefits the farmers, and their neighbours. I'm OK with that. Plus that extra $2 ensures that Canadian milk doesn't contain growth hormones which are permitted in the USA.[1]

[1] https://bcdairy.ca/milk/articles/does-milk-contain-growth-ho...

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#46

Post by efiecho » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:58 PM UTC

ainiriand wrote: post #13

As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. Losing family farms only aggravates the problem in this price race against the bigger actors in dairy production. While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

> While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

Dairy and meat is part of a healthy diet. While not impossible to do without, health problems often develops with time. That's why most people (84%) who adopts a vegan diet at some point in their lives, returns to eating meat and dairy again. The first years on a plant diet are usually great, almost everyone feels better than ever. Then after 5-10 years many will experience a steep decline in health, both physical and mental that is resolved with returning to animal products. Of course eating too much animal products and not enough plants will also make you sick, that goes without saying.

So yes, agree very much that we should care how it is produced.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#47

Post by CuriouslyC » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 12:58 PM UTC

corty wrote: post #34

CuriouslyC wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manure isn't a problem if you free range your animals, have landscape structures to prevent runoff and have other animals that eat bugs in the same space such as chickens. Then it just contributes fertility to the land. Children working their family farm are learning real skills. Learning how to produce food is vastly more important than american history or most of the literature they would learn in school. Industria…

> Manure isn't a problem if you free range your animals, have landscape structures to prevent runoff and have other animals that eat bugs in the same space such as chickens. Then it just contributes fertility to the land. I would contest that. Animal manure runoff has always been a problem to e.g. brooks and rivers and only in recent years has the legislation started to prevent some of the more problematic practices.…

If you aren't running a ridiculous number of head per acre and you have swales cut into your land to control runoff, manure is absolutely not a problem.

Permaculture + Silvopasture is labor intensive at harvest for sure, because you can't just run a tree shaker or tractor down rows, but you need to forage through a food forest which requires some knowledge and care. The bigger downside for industrial farmers is that instead of one product you can unload to a co-op easily, you have 30+ crops you need to find a market for.

In my experience a lot of farmers are fairly set in their ways. Even 100% win solutions like no till planting with cover crop grazing are being taken up very slowly.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#48

Post by byerobh » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 1:03 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #18

ainiriand wrote: post #13

As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. Losing family farms only aggravates the problem in this price race against the bigger actors in dairy production. While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

Mind you, activist veganism is one of the biggest reasons family farms are being destroyed all over the world. Basically, low quality food is flooding the market, and getting purchased by the poorer population, that don't feel they have a choice in what they eat, because they eat whatever is necessary to fit in their budget. Meanwhile people that CAN afford to buy high quality food from family farms, don't, because o…

Completely agree that the decline in food quality and the economic structures is tied to a decline in food culture. Seems the rest of the comments do not get the point that if people who can demanded quality food, the race to the bottom could be avoided.

For example, I see how dairy went from the milkman delivering high quality milk to the mass produced stuff that barely resembles the original item. The interesting part is that now the high quality milk can only be had at ever increasing prices as the demand for it has decreased. If people who can afford it don't buy it, less people will afford it in the future furthering the decline in food quality.

Truth is the poor don't even come into the picture. The decline in food culture is driven by the upper class and the pretense that things are the same. "It is still milk!" No it is not the same item. See also, impossible meat, etc...

Catering to the lowest common denominator is only enabled by betters not knowing and choosing better. The health consequences are already apparent and the difference between people's diet and outcomes will only grow starker

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#49

Post by lettergram » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

As someone who’s spent a lot of time in and around farms. I even bought a farm last week!

This is an accurate depiction for the vast majority of farms. It’s an industry where you have a high over head cost (want to start raising cattle - $300k land, $50k equipment, $30k housing / barn, $20k fencing, $10k to start a herd - profit in 2-3 years). This scales well. Get some more land, you can keep the equipment running longer, concentrate cows, etc

I do think this creates overall a less healthy and productive nation. The reason I bought a farm was for my families nutrition. Food from the store has far less nutrition. Working on a farm teaches you hard work (as the article describes) and family bonds. We personally don’t plan on making much profit, if any.

All that being said, focusing on the niche is important. In Tennessee they produce grass fed cattle. Many farmers make profits with relatively small herds. I’m planning on planting a walnut or pawpaw grove, and raising elk.

Unique goods provide a way to make a profit without scale. This is like every industry.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#50

Post by voidmain0001 » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 1:09 PM UTC

urthor wrote: post #32

jeromenerf wrote: post #12

Is it even worth it to make cheese anywhere else than France, Switzerland and Italy mountains?

You can make good cheese in the United States, cheese is really about the recipe (and how much cream was left in the milk). There just is nothing like the culture of cheese production, US foodstuffs are awful quality because the general public buys it up for some unknown reason.

Wait. You just wrote that if America implemented a supply control system that milk prices would increase to $4/g with the implication being that increase in price would be unacceptable. Now you wrote that "US foodstuffs are awful quality because the general public buys it for some unknown reason." You can't have your cake and eat it too. Most likely the public has gotten used to low prices for low quality products. I have had amazing cheese in Vermont and it was expensive - probably because the producer had to use more milk fat which is more costly.