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On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

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Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#31

Why don't struggling dairy farmers convert to beef production? Seems to me it would be much less labour intensive and more profitable. Obviously if every struggling dairy farmer converted to beef it would drive prices down. I think people are eating less dairy in general than in past times. I am not lactose intolerant but I don't think I have had milk or ice cream for at least a year. I do eat cheese and yogurt so ma…

Because beef uses feedlots with grain as well, and have the same manure lakes.

The beef industry has figured out that cattle fatten up far faster on grain, so they leave the cattle out for I think it's 12 months to basically grow to their "adult" size, then put them on grain for a few months to fatten up.

They have it precisely timed, because the cattle basically die on the all grain no silage diets they get, or would if they don't get sent to the abattoir literally a fortnight before.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#32

Is it even worth it to make cheese anywhere else than France, Switzerland and Italy mountains?

You can make good cheese in the United States, cheese is really about the recipe (and how much cream was left in the milk).

There just is nothing like the culture of cheese production, US foodstuffs are awful quality because the general public buys it up for some unknown reason.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#33
post #18

As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. Losing family farms only aggravates the problem in this price race against the bigger actors in dairy production. While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

Mind you, activist veganism is one of the biggest reasons family farms are being destroyed all over the world. Basically, low quality food is flooding the market, and getting purchased by the poorer population, that don't feel they have a choice in what they eat, because they eat whatever is necessary to fit in their budget. Meanwhile people that CAN afford to buy high quality food from family farms, don't, because o…

You will be happy to learn that the majority of soybeans fed to live stock, so if you are worried about the environment, soy is better than meat.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#34
post #3

While I can appreciate the author's nostalgia, I cannot really agree on some of the criticism: The manure problem is a problem at any size of farm, the amount of manure per cow is somewhat constant. So concentrating all the cows in some factory farm doesn't really make anything worse as long as the total number of cows is somewhat constant. The undocumented immigrant labour problem isn't as big a problem as the famil…

Manure isn't a problem if you free range your animals, have landscape structures to prevent runoff and have other animals that eat bugs in the same space such as chickens. Then it just contributes fertility to the land. Children working their family farm are learning real skills. Learning how to produce food is vastly more important than american history or most of the literature they would learn in school. Industria…

> Manure isn't a problem if you free range your animals, have landscape structures to prevent runoff and have other animals that eat bugs in the same space such as chickens. Then it just contributes fertility to the land.

I would contest that. Animal manure runoff has always been a problem to e.g. brooks and rivers and only in recent years has the legislation started to prevent some of the more problematic practices. Like grazing all your cattle on a soon-to-be-flooded grassland next to the river. Nitrate pollution of the ground water is also more pronounced in German areas where free-range animals are more common.

> Industrial farming is stupid, and totally unnecessary. Using permaculture and silvopasture, you can produce much more (and more nutritious) food in the same space, while improving (rather than destroying) fertility. If done right, you don't need pesticides, your animals don't need antibiotics or dewormers, and the whole thing mostly runs itself aside from a little pruning/herding and a lot of picking. The only downside to these methods is they take some time to get going, and they require knowledgeable farm workers rather than dirt cheap migrant laborers or a combine.

If it were only farmer's knowledge that is required, farming industry would do it in an instant, considering the significant advantages you named.

I would guess that either the methods you mention are far more labour-intensive as well as requiring more qualified labour. Or that the advantages aren't really that significant. Industrial agriculture is hunting for every bit of efficiency gain, and lots of businesses are looking for an edge any way they can. So it seems strange to me that the methods you mention aren't used in any significant amount.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#35
post #3

While I can appreciate the author's nostalgia, I cannot really agree on some of the criticism: The manure problem is a problem at any size of farm, the amount of manure per cow is somewhat constant. So concentrating all the cows in some factory farm doesn't really make anything worse as long as the total number of cows is somewhat constant. The undocumented immigrant labour problem isn't as big a problem as the famil…

> The undocumented immigrant labour problem isn't as big a problem as the family farms' systemic problem of child labour and child exploitation. Which the author glosses over in his point of view. He doesn't gloss over it, he glorifies it as "family bonding" or something. It's disgusting.

Let's not be overdramatic. Working on farms as a kid is how the overwhelming majority of humanity lived for literally thousands of years. Not every kid working with his family is exploited or abused; I can think of quite a few of my teenaged peers from "difficult" backgrounds who got on the straight and narrow only when they were finally allowed to work.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#36
post #27

On one point the article has made. Canadians are really really unhappy with their milk system, they have some of the highest priced milk in the entire world and they despise it. "probably through a supply management program similar to what Canada has" is a nonstarter for cityfolk. It would mean $4 milk.

I remember the first time I saw cheese prices in the US and almost cried. A 1 kg block of good cheese was like $20-30, not $60-90.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#37
post #3

While I can appreciate the author's nostalgia, I cannot really agree on some of the criticism: The manure problem is a problem at any size of farm, the amount of manure per cow is somewhat constant. So concentrating all the cows in some factory farm doesn't really make anything worse as long as the total number of cows is somewhat constant. The undocumented immigrant labour problem isn't as big a problem as the famil…

On family farms (and my own), manure is used as fertilizer. On factory farms most manure is disposed of and animals fed on grain. Children of parents on a family farm is hardly exploitation. Paying illegal immigrants sub minimum wage to squeeze additional profit out of the land certainly is a bigger problem. Do we need industrial farming if it's driven by big capital? If the industry is happy to damage the environmen…

> Children of parents on a family farm is hardly exploitation.

How so? I know it often isn't against labor laws because there are specific exceptions for exactly that case. But in any other circumstance the same thing _is_ considered exploitative.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Owning slaves was also done for generations, so not sure what your point is. Both are bad, but according to my values exploiting children is somewhat worse than exploiting adults, yes.

Do you classify helping with chores around the house as child exploitation too? As on a farm, kids have chores. They're not working night and day.

They often work _way_ more than other children. If your kid is doing "chores around the house" for hours every day, it's exploitation too.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#39
post #18

As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. Losing family farms only aggravates the problem in this price race against the bigger actors in dairy production. While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

Mind you, activist veganism is one of the biggest reasons family farms are being destroyed all over the world. Basically, low quality food is flooding the market, and getting purchased by the poorer population, that don't feel they have a choice in what they eat, because they eat whatever is necessary to fit in their budget. Meanwhile people that CAN afford to buy high quality food from family farms, don't, because o…

> activist veganism is one of the biggest reasons family farms are being destroyed all over the world

You're going to have to provide some substantial evidence to back that up. In reality, family farms are actually being destroyed by factory farms[1][2]. This is the case with most industries - smaller operations cannot compete or get bought out by larger players.

> massive areas being deforested ilegally are often used to produce soybeans

If you are concerned about deforestation due to soy production, pointing to vegans as the main culprit is misguided at best and misleading at worst.

If you care about preventing deforestation from soy, then you should know that around 70-75% of the world’s soya ends up as animal feed for cows, pigs, chickens and farmed fish[3] "In 2017, Brazil produced 16.3 million tons of soymeal for its domestic market, and more than 90 percent of that became animal feed, with 50 percent used as chicken feed, 25 percent as pig feed, and 12 percent for beef and dairy cattle feed."[4]

1. https://sentientmedia.org/family-farms-and-the-rise-of-indus...

2. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/09/american...

3. https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/publication...

4. https://news.mongabay.com/2019/01/brazilian-hunger-for-meat-...

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Owning slaves was also done for generations, so not sure what your point is. Both are bad, but according to my values exploiting children is somewhat worse than exploiting adults, yes.

Do you classify helping with chores around the house as child exploitation too? As on a farm, kids have chores. They're not working night and day.

Do you have ANY idea how chores on a farm look like? Hint: it's nothing like vacuming or taking dishes out from a dishwasher. It's lots of hard work. Dealing with excrements and dangerous animals (even a cow or pig is dangerous in confined spaces).
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