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Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

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Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#101

Post by matsemann »

I hope big tournaments will be more distributed in the future. Like soccer, no need for Qatar to kill thousands to build lots of stadiums that won't be used much in the future. Do like the Euro was going to: Have multiple host cities and reuse existing stadiums.

Olympics make everyone build a bob sleigh track. But it's such a niche sport and no one will ever use it again in most of the world. Or for summer olympics, one basically has to build an artificial river so a few people can kayak slalom.

Cost of these things are huge, and will most often not be much used by the population after. Instead, split it so that existing stuff can be reused. While it's cool with an olympic city, having 3 or more is probably just as nice an experience.

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#102

Post by dagw »

HenryBemis wrote: post #93
dagw wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are their any actual legit studies that have shown if hosting an olympics is worth it for the overall economy or not? Lots, probably hundreds. Most of them conclude 'it depends, but basically not worth it'. But the gist is that if you are already a functioning city and popular tourist spot (like London) you'll get close to zero benefit (at massive costs). London actually significantly had less total tourists the year…

The upside is that you modernise your city. In this case, they would have receive X thousand/million of tourists, which they won't come. If you travel to Japan (e.g. from Europe) you don't just go for the events. You also say an extra 5-10 days. That is a big loss for the tourist industry, the millions of mouths eating in restaurants, drinking in bars, and on top of the costs/profits, imagien that the state takes a 5…

The upside is that you modernise your city.

In some cases that is true. But I've been to Tokyo twice as a tourist and didn't see much in desperate need of modernization.

And even if your city is in need of modernization, hosting an Olympics is a very inefficient way to go about it. The only argument that can be made is a political one where it is easier to convince the government to spend $10 billion on hosting the Olympics (and spending some of that on infrastructure renovation) rather than just spending $2 billion on infrastructure renovation. In fact the Mayor of London even said: “I bid for the Olympics because it’s the only way to get the billions of pounds out of the government to develop the East End – to clean the soil, put in the infrastructure and build the housing.”

However as many cities have found, the modernization done to host an Olympics aren't necessarily the modernizations a city needs the most long term,

In this case, they would have receive X thousand/million of tourists

Would they be getting more that they would otherwise though? As I mentioned elsewhere, London saw a clear drop in tourists visiting over the Olympic summer (with a matching decrease in restaurant and shop revenue), since it turns out many people who want to visit London would rather do so when there isn't a major sporting event causing massive chaos.

I mean yes. Spending all that money preparing for an Olympics and having no one show up is probably worse than having people show up. But not hosting the Olympics in the first place would obviously be the most financially prudent move

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#103

Post by Retric »

DevX101 wrote: post #82
zpeti wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are their any actual legit studies that have shown if hosting an olympics is worth it for the overall economy or not? For example I think the olympics put Barcelona on the map for a lot of tourists and they’ve been reaping the rewards since, but it seems to me that’s more of an exception than the rule.

Hosting the Olympics costs somewhere between US$15-20 billion. If the goal is really to put a city 'on the map' you could spend less than 5% of that money on an extensive cultural/tourism marketing campaign and have more of an effect. I've yet to meet anyone who's chosen Sochi as a vacation destination.

Winter Olympics locations rarely end up as tourist destinations because people take fewer international vacations to cold locations. Summer Olympics have a better shot, and the stadiums can more often be useful long term. But, it’s still low odds of success.

The best bet seems to be a lesser known location which can use most of the infrastructure and has some non Olympics tourist destinations. Which isn’t a huge list, but there have been a few.

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#104

Post by Aromasin »

HenryBemis wrote: post #93
dagw wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are their any actual legit studies that have shown if hosting an olympics is worth it for the overall economy or not? Lots, probably hundreds. Most of them conclude 'it depends, but basically not worth it'. But the gist is that if you are already a functioning city and popular tourist spot (like London) you'll get close to zero benefit (at massive costs). London actually significantly had less total tourists the year…

The upside is that you modernise your city. In this case, they would have receive X thousand/million of tourists, which they won't come. If you travel to Japan (e.g. from Europe) you don't just go for the events. You also say an extra 5-10 days. That is a big loss for the tourist industry, the millions of mouths eating in restaurants, drinking in bars, and on top of the costs/profits, imagien that the state takes a 5…

This was a massive benefit that came from the UK Olympics. Almost every facility that was used throughout the games continues to be used to this day.

"When the Park opens fully in spring 2014, it will provide a world-class hub for performance and community sport, offering a range of 25 indoor and outdoor activities every day, all year round. The iconic Aquatics Centre will offer two 50-metre pools and a diving pool, as well as seating for 2,500 spectators, while the Velodrome will be reopened as the Lee Valley VeloPark, providing state-of-the art cycling facilities. The Eton Manor hockey and tennis facilities, meanwhile, will operate as Lee Valley Hockey and Tennis Centre, offering two outdoor hockey pitches, six outdoor and four indoor tennis courts. In 2015, the venue will stage the European Hockey Championships – the first international sporting competition secured for the Park after the Games.

The centrepiece of the Park – the Olympic Stadium – will also host elite international sporting action, including five matches during the 2015 Rugby World Cup and the IAAF and IPC Athletics World Championships in 2017. From 2016, it will also be the home of English Premier League football club West Ham United, who will take residency as the Stadium’s long-term anchor tenant.

The Olympic Park’s Copper Box venue has already reopened for public use, offering courts for 20 different sports including basketball, boxing and badminton as well as a state-of-the-art gym. The venue will not only provide fantastic facilities for the community, it will also be a home for elite sport, with the London Lions basketball team set to play their home matches at the arena.

But the Games have not only provided London and its residents with new sporting facilities, they also led to major infrastructure improvements, with Transport for London investing GBP 6.5 billion in its transport network in preparation for the 2012 Games.

This investment included ten railway lines and 30 new bridges, which will continue to connect London communities after the Games, while at least 60 Games-related projects were initiated to promote greener travel, including a GBP 10 million investment to upgrade pedestrian and cycling routes across London.

The Olympic Village, meanwhile, will also provide a permanent legacy for the whole of London, creating a brand new residential quarter of the city, to be known as “East Village”.

The Athletes’ Village is being transformed into 2,818 new homes – including 1,379 affordable homes – providing essential new housing for more than 6,000 people in east London. New parklands, open space and community facilities will also support the communities that develop in the area following the Games."

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#105

Post by matsemann »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #63
book-sandworm wrote: post #46

This is such a painful situation for Japan. When I visited a couple a years ago the preparations were still going full force. They were so proud and looking forward to hosting it. Really think they are between a rock and a hard place with any decision. This together with all the sub-human conditions the workers in Qatar for the football world championship make it seem like organising events like this not something I…

> This together with all the sub-human conditions the workers in Qatar for the football world championship Are they not simply de factō slaves? deprived of a right to leave at their choosing? That the world accepts this shows well the hypocrisy of man. — I suppose that for all of his theoretical abhorrence by slavery, a good football match weights heavier than that.

Grass root of Norwegian soccer is now calling for a boycott. Of course easy to say, as we probably won't qualify.. But i hope it could gain momentum.

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#106

Post by cdavid »

brigandish wrote: post #91
lhl wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true that Japan has done many non-optimal things, but the biggest difference from the west IMO is that there has been close to 100% mask usage (eyeballing in Tokyo, about 95% surgical masks) for over a year now. Any Japanese who see things like Idaho’s recent mask burning protests are simply bewildered. Of course, people take their masks off when eating out, but still keep them on while ordering and waiting for…

The biggest difference is in the waistlines. As reported just the other day[0]: > Of the 2.5 million COVID-19 deaths reported by the end of February 2021, 2.2 million were in countries where more than half the population is classified as overweight Japan is not one of those countries. As someone who lives in Japan I can tell you that the general population isn't wearing high quality, fitted masks in controlled condit…

Obesity does not really explain order of magnitude fewer cases, and obesity is much less of a factor than age for mortality. I can't find the numbers now, but it is better to be younger and quite fat than much older and fit. Japan does not lack people above 85 years where the fatality rate is double digit if you catch the disease.

The only reasonable answer I have seen so far about Japan is that we don't really know. It is certainly true that many people don't wear masks properly in Japan (e.g. every time I get out, even just to combini, I see people not wearing masks on the nose). But is it worth than not wearing one ? I am not sure we really know. I've seen conflicting info there.

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#107

Post by SonicTheSith »

h0nd wrote: post #87
SonicTheSith wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that we have a global pandemic right? So if even you won't treat everyone as a possible threat, the chance that 'guests' bring in the virus is high. Since Japan is an island, most people will fly there by plane and most people will be inside the plane for at least 6 hours+. Even if at half capacity the chance that there is 1 infectious person/ person becoming infectious is high. All Tests are snapshots…

Thank you, I feel this needs some explanation. >You are aware that we have a global pandemic right? It would be a very difficult task to avoid noticing. >So if even you won't treat everyone as a possible threat, the chance that 'guests' bring in the virus is high. Since Japan is an island, most people will fly there by plane and most people will be inside the plane for at least 6 hours+. Even if at half capacity the…

> The virus is there already, since quite a while.

Sure but adding possible new clusters, is not that good of an idea. Furthermore, the chances that additional strains arrive there is higher. Unfortunately the Britisch strain is spreading now in Tokyo.

> What kind of tests are available that can show if you're infectuous? That would be really helpful to tackle the situation. So far, I just know about tests that can detect the presence of the virus or antibodies.

In europe we have Antigen Rapid Tests that show results within 30mins. The results indicate whether at the time taken you are infectious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_antigen_test

>They are accurate in terms of detecting smallest leftovers of the virus, but not in detecting if someone is infectious. Agree

> I fail to understand how a 'foreigner' is a bigger threat (in terms of 'protection from a new outbreak') than the locals already carrying the virus and being responsible for all the recent cases (there is a staggering 22% positivity rate in Tokyo today - without these 'dangerous' foreigners).

To stop a pandemic you need to decrease mobility, to do that we had/have lockdowns. Some countries have closed their borders just like Japan (recently) and New Zealand. The Japanese Government has decided to conduct the Olympic games this Summer with only the Atheles and Trainers getting entry.

"Guests"/ Tourists would not be limited to the games but would like to go sightseeing etc. thereby increasing the amount of people moving around and creating additional / preventable clusters. Where do you have that 22% positivy rate from? This is the total oposite of what the offical stats say. https://stopcovid19.metro.tokyo.lg.jp/en/ I know government stats should be taken with a pinch salt. But a positivity rate of 22% would not be posible to hide, since 22% of the kanto region is 16million people....

> Is discrimination okay, if there are 'reasons' for it? Is discrimination okay, if a majority agrees with it?

So is New Zealand discrimanting against foreigners for having a entry stop? Japan did the same thing New Zealand/Australia and gave the olympic teams an exception. Furthermore, a countries purpose is to protect their citizins whether they are native or foreign. What is the best and most effective way as an Island nation to reduce the risk and danger to their populace? It is to temporarily halt the issuence of new Visa / Tourist Visa included.

And is discrimination ok? It is difficult to say here are two examples: Purely Fiction

Country X says no entry to African Americans, because they are taller than the populace. This would be not OK

Country Y temporary bans entry to the whole world because of a global pandemic. This would be OK since the goal is not discrimation but the reduction of movement of people.

Both can be argued to be discrimination but both have a different intention. Thus I would say that there is no absolute answer, as is True or False. There are greyzones inbetween. I think the intend and purpose matters as well as who is affected - everyone is affected equaly vs a single group of people. Yes you could define 98% of the world as a single group of people , but still...

BTW if for example Japan would ban all foreigners, because foreigners have a different hair colour, or because they look different in general. Then I would argue against that policy.

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#108

Post by iso1631 »

dagw wrote: post #102
HenryBemis wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The upside is that you modernise your city. In this case, they would have receive X thousand/million of tourists, which they won't come. If you travel to Japan (e.g. from Europe) you don't just go for the events. You also say an extra 5-10 days. That is a big loss for the tourist industry, the millions of mouths eating in restaurants, drinking in bars, and on top of the costs/profits, imagien that the state takes a 5…

The upside is that you modernise your city. In some cases that is true. But I've been to Tokyo twice as a tourist and didn't see much in desperate need of modernization. And even if your city is in need of modernization, hosting an Olympics is a very inefficient way to go about it. The only argument that can be made is a political one where it is easier to convince the government to spend $10 billion on hosting the O…

London normally[0] gets twice the number of international tourists as Tokyo, it's only $100 return flight from Europe and easily available for a weekend, and even flights from the US aren't extortionate, and are very frequent.

Tokyo is in the order of Seoul, Miami, Barcalona rather than London, Paris, Dubai, New York.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_internationa...

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#109

Post by bamboozled »

toyg wrote: post #62
bamboozled wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of a positivity rate in this case though if the testing is so varied. For example, you can't really give an accurate picture if one day 1000 tests are performed and the next day, 9000 ?

Maybe what is wrong is our media-fuelled expectation that we should have perfect day-to-day metrics, rather than 5- or 10-day averages.

Well, you can just combine the daily data and extrapolate the results across any time frame you have data points for?

Are you suggesting that the media is to blame for something?

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#110

Post by iso1631 »

DevX101 wrote: post #82
zpeti wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are their any actual legit studies that have shown if hosting an olympics is worth it for the overall economy or not? For example I think the olympics put Barcelona on the map for a lot of tourists and they’ve been reaping the rewards since, but it seems to me that’s more of an exception than the rule.

Hosting the Olympics costs somewhere between US$15-20 billion. If the goal is really to put a city 'on the map' you could spend less than 5% of that money on an extensive cultural/tourism marketing campaign and have more of an effect. I've yet to meet anyone who's chosen Sochi as a vacation destination.

Sochi is hardly open for tourism - the closest international market, Europe, requires visas to visit, and not even visas on arrival like countries like Turkey.

Far less hassle for someone from Germany to visit Cairo, Dubai, Nairobi, New York, than to visit Sochi.

Same issue with holding the world cup in 2018.

Give a 30 day tourist visa on arrival and they'd get far more tourists

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