On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't • Hacker News Board

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#841

Post by oehtXRwMkIs » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 8:56 AM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #749

sorisos wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen some research on "relative income happiness" that suggest having poor(er) people nearby should increase happiness. Perhaps it doesn't apply if the income cap is to large...

Or perhaps people aren't actually rational utility maximizing machines and might not properly anticipate the utility benefits from the change.

Science is descriptive, not prescriptive. So no psych/social science research would ever claim that people are rational utility maximizing machines since they're descriptive by their very nature. And if people were rational utility maximizing machines such an effect would not be observed since happiness affected by social comparison is irrational. I don't understand how you came up with such a straw man.

I'm guessing sorisos is spot on with their last sentence. There's a big difference between being a millionaire surrounded by middle classers and being a lower classer surrounded by extreme poverty. Often times with happiness research there are caveats and ranges to keep in mind but the nuances tend to get lost in the headlines.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#842

Post by Siira » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 9:10 AM UTC

whack wrote: post #377

throwaway-0987 wrote: post #174

Throwaway because I don't want my co-workers to know. I was poor. My father left home when I was a kid in middle school. My mom worked part time cleaning houses and left us when she found a new husband. I dropped out of high-school in the 9th grade and went to work. Low paying jobs. I lived with my aunt on the bad side of town. Fast-forward 35 years. Today, I make about 200K per year. I got a GED, went to trade schoo…

> I made it and you can too. Poverty has no color. It impacts everyone. You can't tell just by looking at someone. I love your story. There's also a ton of people who will delight in cherry-picking your story, as justification for not expanding the social safety net. "throwaway-0987 did it, and you can too! You just need to stop being so lazy" A few factors to consider: - You had an aunt you could live with - As a yo…

“Wise enough” is not quite the word for some of these points, “self-controlled enough” is. And giving bail-outs, either to individuals or big corporations, will always distort their incentives to take more risks, save less, spend more, and generally act more selfishly. If you’re going to give bail-outs, at least make sure you give more to responsible, “wise enough” people, or your recipients will experience a shrewd lapse of judgement.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#843

Post by nucleardog » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 9:28 AM UTC

spaetzleesser wrote: post #179

genedan wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I become more wealthy, I have started to tackle problems that I never really thought about when I wasn't as well off, things that cropped up when I thought I'd finally have peace of mind. In retrospect, the insecurity was always there, but I had the luxury of ignoring it when I was poorer. Once I started making enough not to worry about rent, the problem was then saving enough for things like retirement, setting u…

Just remember that your anxieties are child's play compared to the anxieties of people worrying every day about paying for their place to live, food or health care. These worries are tally different.

They're really not child's play. At least not for me.

I've been poor. Not homeless poor, but paycheque-to-paycheque, zero dollars in the bank, $1500 on some maxed out credit cards, just budgeted out the non-negotiable bills (rent, heat, credit card minimum payment) for this month and I need to find $8.47 in the sofa to break even and guess I'll hit up the food bank to feed myself again sorta poor.

I make... decent money now.

Is my life objectively better? Yes.

Does the stress of figuring out where my next meal comes from and the stress of figuring out where my meals 30 years from now and how to finance my child's education feel different? No.

Anxiety is anxiety. Just because in a global context it's not as bad doesn't mean it's not as bad to the individual.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#844

Post by ClumsyPilot » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 9:55 AM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #829

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you are not aware of all the 'innovation' UK has explored in 16-18th century, where people had to pay for being in jail, were charged for being judged, we had debt prisons and people ran their business from them! Also we gave cocaine to kids when their teeth hurt. These ideas are preposterous by modern standards, but people can and have come up with arrangements where a person works from jail without b…

Either the government allows the prisoner to go free 8 hours a day to make a living he sees fit, or the government dictates how the prisoner labors. In the first case, the prisoner is not a prisoner but becomes a free man. The second case is slavery.

So you just straight up ignore my point about prisons in british empire and keep repeating the same thing over an over again?

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#845

Post by deepstack » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 10:30 AM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #16

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep! As someone from a former socialist country, I can confirm. Situation has got a lot better in the last ~30 years, people have alot more, but since a few people got even more than that, some complain a lot. Average worker family has gone from bicicyles and maybe one yugo (or a "fico" - even smaller/cheaper) to two, maybe three european-mid-range cars + all the modern extras, but are not happy, because their neighb…

Comparison is the thief of joy. Theodore Roosevelt

Indeed. Comparison is not bad as that is what current academia is based on. However also be aware comparison is NOT the ONLY way to experience life.

One of the effect of comparison is that it diminishes one thing over another.

I often find new the thing when I just experience one thing for itself without comparing against a pre-existing experience and thing.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#846

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 10:31 AM UTC

lostdog wrote: post #825

WalterBright wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> caving immediately after someone demonstrated knowledge of their legal rights and lack of fear to contact the justice system. Sounds like the solution. When I was younger, people would try to take advantage of me, but all it takes is a bit of standing up for yourself and they concede.

The post explained the problem with getting deposits back very clearly: > This is because apartments at both of these levels quite accurately assume that you can’t afford a lawyer - while it’s normal to put down a month or two worth of rent as a security deposit, it’s much less normal to get it back; the apartment complex has no reason to give back thousands of dollars they can simply keep. When you were younger, wer…

The "tool" is to stand up for yourself. Actually having to get a lawyer is very rare. You can also simply take them to small claims court, no lawyer required.

The thing is, nearly all these people trying to take advantage are bluffing. Call the bluff, and they fold immediately. They're just testing to see if you're a sucker.

But if you did leave the apartment damaged, they're not going to cave and you're going to forfeit the security deposit.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#847

Post by flumpcakes » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 11:51 AM UTC

borishn wrote: post #471

flumpcakes wrote: post #297

I share this sentiment from the author. I speak "normally", as in to say I don't have a regional accent, and have "white collar" jobs working in IT. Many people assume I am a good middle class person. I often get told I am naive, or stupid for saying things like "rent prices are too expensive" and that when the median income people cannot afford the median priced house we're just growing another bubble. I had a plays…

"Many people assume I am a good middle class person" is what many people consider a "privilege".

This is exactly the attitude I was talking about.

You say "privilege": I spent hours every day practising to speak like news readers on TV. I don't talk like anyone else in my family. But everything comes down to not having an outward appereance as a person from a marginalised or minority group.

Poverty is the great equaliser.

When everyone assumes you are the in the "privileged" group it's hard to get help.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#848

Post by 4AoZqrH2fsk5UB » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 12:07 PM UTC

throwaway-0987 wrote: post #174

Throwaway because I don't want my co-workers to know. I was poor. My father left home when I was a kid in middle school. My mom worked part time cleaning houses and left us when she found a new husband. I dropped out of high-school in the 9th grade and went to work. Low paying jobs. I lived with my aunt on the bad side of town. Fast-forward 35 years. Today, I make about 200K per year. I got a GED, went to trade schoo…

My story is not as extreme, but similar. There past that made me comment is the wife and kids comment. I feel that too.

Knowing just how bad things can get, especially when you have kids, motivates you to maintain a large cushion in a way for people who haven’t seen things fall apart have a difficult time relating to

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#849

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 12:21 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #797

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its hard for me to imagine being so full of envy that you would like to see the children of rich people stripped of everything they have. I think you misread the sentiment. What a lot of us would like to see is a more meritocratic system, where children start off on more equal footing and either earn their wealth or not. But inherited works against that. It is difficult to listen to arguments against taxing the wea…

Right, but you're trying to achieve your meritocracy by pulling people down instead of helping people up. This isn't a footrace, and it's not a zero sum game. When you say something like "we need to take money away from rich kids so they have to work like everyone else", you're doing nothing but harm. You may feel the people you're harming have it coming, but that's still what you're doing. The idea that we have to c…

> Right, but you're trying to achieve your meritocracy by pulling people down instead of helping people up.

And how are we to do that without taking money from somewhere and using it to help people up?

> The idea that we have to come up with a good reason _not_ to heavily tax people is backwards. The only reason you need is that people have rights. A man owns what is his and you have absolutely no right to it.

Case in point. You can't take money away from rich kids via inheritance tax (nevermind that they'd still have innumerable advantages from growing up in a wealthy household), you can't tax the wealthy, but you're somehow supposed to help poor children up anyway. Who's paying for that?

Furthermore, I disagree with the statement on the grounds that national infrastructure and protections are doubtless large contributors to anyone being able to amass that kind of wealth in the first place, therefore it is not unreasonable to expect that a portion of that wealth be contributed back.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#850

Post by Grustaf » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 12:34 PM UTC

throwaway-0987 wrote: post #174

Throwaway because I don't want my co-workers to know. I was poor. My father left home when I was a kid in middle school. My mom worked part time cleaning houses and left us when she found a new husband. I dropped out of high-school in the 9th grade and went to work. Low paying jobs. I lived with my aunt on the bad side of town. Fast-forward 35 years. Today, I make about 200K per year. I got a GED, went to trade schoo…

> Anyway, people think I'm 'privileged' now because I earn a lot of money, but they have no idea that I used to sleep on the floor and eat in soup lines.

Don't worry too much about that, I've seen people here seriously claim that you're privileged unless you are destitute and homeless. The word has lost all meaning.