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On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

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Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#821

Post by baby »

chmod600 wrote: post #766
baby wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the constant drumbeat of unfairness and victimhood is a counterproductive tactic in the policymaking process. I don't get it, do you think the system is fair? Do you think it's fine to have so many homeless people in the US because they were given a fair chance? Do you think it's fair that you can go bankrupt due to a medical issue?

No, of course life is not fair. But in the limited time we have, we can either discuss how to make the world more fair, or succeed despite unfairness. Each discussion has its place. We shouldn't derail every success story with comments about how "privileged" someone is for having an aunt.

I disagree, because people often focus on success story to argue that we don’t need to improve the situation, the market will figure out itself, and that’s what we’re seeing at play.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#822

Post by WalterBright »

sorisos wrote: post #786
chmod600 wrote: post #755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, thank you. An important element of my argument is to focus on what's in your control. It's not exclusively about immigrants. In fact, immigrants are less likely to be caught up in notions of fairness because they probably thought to themselves before they came something like "this is going to suck and be unfair, but it will be worth it for my children and grandchildren". So they just make the best of it and comp…

> If every time someone shares their success, the response is instantly about how privileged or lucky they are, then our culture is sick. We should listen to and support those stories. I would argue that a culture which attributes success in life to personal effort or choices is sick. This makes people blame themselves for not trying hard enough etc, when in reality there are more decisive factors such as who your pa…

> a culture which attributes success in life to personal effort or choices is sick.

Then what is the point of making better choices, such as staying in school, avoiding drugs and not committing crimes?

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#823

Post by sershe »

syops wrote: post #214
throwaway-0987 wrote: post #174

Throwaway because I don't want my co-workers to know. I was poor. My father left home when I was a kid in middle school. My mom worked part time cleaning houses and left us when she found a new husband. I dropped out of high-school in the 9th grade and went to work. Low paying jobs. I lived with my aunt on the bad side of town. Fast-forward 35 years. Today, I make about 200K per year. I got a GED, went to trade schoo…

I very much enjoyed reading your post. You made a statement that, taken literally, I disagree with and wonder if you care to elaborate more on it. I made it and you can too. It seems to me that luck plays a huge role in each success story like yours. My wife had a similar trajectory and makes quite a bit of money. However, along the way, there were hundreds of decisions made that could have gone the wrong way. She's…

Aside from the socioeconomic circumstances of one's birth, luck favors the prepared. I also come from a poor background and got "lucky" a few times in my life (in particular the sequence of events leading to me joining a US tech company while making web apps in Russia was rather tenuous), but the cause for the luck each time was prep.

E.g. I aced an interview question on GC design because, after doing some GC tuning for a web app at work I read GC docs and then a couple research papers at home to understand it better. After the (group) interview loop, someone told me they were asked a hypothetical SQL backend design question they had trouble with, and I realized I knew then how SQL Server solved that, for similar reasons, so I could have aced that question too. Sure, I could have gotten yet another design question that I knew nothing about ("unlucky"), but to even have a chance to get "lucky" you need to prepare... to win the lottery you at a minimum need to buy a ticket ;)

As for the luck of the birth, almost by definition, when you are poor you grow up surrounded by people in similar circumstances; if you "make it", it is very easy to judge those who didn't, because well, they were in similar circumstances to you and you saw what they did differently, often in detail.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#824

Post by [deleted] »

acdha wrote: post #765
WalterBright wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that nobody has tried to cheat me, steal from me, take advantage of my ignorance and inexperience, steamroll me, threaten me, con me, etc., you're very mistaken.

Oh, I definitely believe that. I'm just saying that the ability to push back varies more than it should in a just society.

[deleted]

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#825

Post by lostdog »

WalterBright wrote: post #586
acdha wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, there are sharp race and class disparities here: if you’re white and pass for at least lower middle class, you are much less likely to have an issue because even unethical landlords know the police and courts will listen to complaints. Go outside of those communities and complaints become more common, often with accounts of a rental company caving immediately after someone demonstrated knowledge of their l…

> caving immediately after someone demonstrated knowledge of their legal rights and lack of fear to contact the justice system. Sounds like the solution. When I was younger, people would try to take advantage of me, but all it takes is a bit of standing up for yourself and they concede.

The post explained the problem with getting deposits back very clearly:

> This is because apartments at both of these levels quite accurately assume that you can’t afford a lawyer - while it’s normal to put down a month or two worth of rent as a security deposit, it’s much less normal to get it back; the apartment complex has no reason to give back thousands of dollars they can simply keep.

When you were younger, were you (or your parents) able to afford a lawyer? Even if you couldn't, did you at least look or sound like you could? You seem to assume that this person has the same tools available to them that you do, and maybe that's the assumption the post is trying to get you to revisit.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#826

Post by swiley »

carapace wrote: post #655
swiley wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what's ridiculous about much of the zoning and building codes here. People don't want poor people living in sub-optimal housing, so instead they force them to sleep outside or live with abusive people.

Technical fix: aircrete dome homes. E.g.: https://www.domegaia.com/ Beautiful, cheap, easy, fast, durable (fire- and earthquake-proof, "It will not rot, rust or decompose in water.", etc.) and regular folk can make them with "backyard-scale" foamers and construction technique.

Yeah they said concrete would end homelessness. It's not a technical problem, it's a people problem. Places that allow and encourage lots of dense, walk-able construction (like where I live) have low rent, places that don't do this have high rent no matter how cheap construction materials are.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#827

Post by madengr »

overlords wrote: post #696
criticaljudge wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that children don't deserve the spoils of their parents is really crazy to me. Parents work so that they can give their children a better life. Heck, they even choose their partners to maximize odds for a better life for their offspring (wealth, good genes, and so on - it does not even depend on capitalism). To take that away from people is truly dehumanizing, but sounds like a typical socialist scheme (de…

1 rich person saving his money so his 3 children never have to work is bad for the economy. It's better the 1 rich person is forced to consume that in his lifetime. By doing so that money is redistributed back to the economy, and his 3 kids are also productive. In scenario 1 only 1 out 4 people work. In scenario 2, 4 out of 4 people work. Also - it's hypocritical for 'pull yourself by your bootstraps' for children bo…

You do realize the the “kids” who inherit the money are probably in their 60’s, and the parents are late 80’s. Most people who inherit money from parents are already in their last decade working. You make it sound like a bunch of 18 YO.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#828

Post by mikem170 »

cableshaft wrote: post #516
mikem170 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yep, the US healthcare system basically means you have to be a multimillionaire when you've retired That's just not true. Everyone qualifies for Medicare when they are 65 years old. An extra $150/month gets you supplemental insurance, with a lower deductable than many work plans. Also, and this is significant, medical bills can't collect against retirement accounts. The law is that they can't touch it. Same with yo…

After doing the math, it's looking like my rough estimate was a little high, but I suspect the numbers I'm about to share is higher than you're thinking. Sure, they qualify for Medicare, but that doesn't mean they won't be still be spending serious money on healthcare. According to CNBC, if you were retiring in 2019, as a couple in good health you'll need on average of $390,000[1]. That assumes you're on Medicare as…

I think that I follow your logic.

But retirement funding is so dependent on an individual's expenses, ability to generate income, expectations, risk tolerance, and available resources such as assets and family. These are all different for different people. Life expectancy and related health expenses are a huge unknown. Rich or poor we are all going to die, but we don't know when or how.

I think it's reasonable to retire as a healthy 50 year old with a million dollars. I know that may be unconventional around here. The existing (subsidized) obamacare and (supplemented) medicare options are a pretty good deal, in combination with savings to cover deductables, out of pocket maximums, and dental. Medicaid would be the backup for the worst-case scenarios, typically long term nursing home care. But that'll bankrupt most people, in most countries [0]. Is it reasonable to expect otherwise?

I was curious about the $390k figure you quoted, there wasn't any detail provided. I wonder if these are expenses over and above what medicare covers, like elective surgeries, or if this figure includes money for private nursing home care, etc. It was for two people.

Back to your original post, it is easy to keep retirement savings in a qualified 401k/ira/roth account that, along with a primary residence up to a generous maximum, is protected from medical debt with the exception of long term care. A retired millionaire should have around half of their money protected in such accounts. Do other countries give someone in similar financial circumstances a better deal?

[0] https://www.thinkadvisor.com/2014/11/24/12-countries-who-in-...

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#829

Post by dahfizz »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #808
dahfizz wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And my point is that you are making a false equivalence. The prisoner is not in the same position as a free person. If the government deprives a person of all of their freedom, and then tells them "work or die", that's slavery. A free has has to eat, because of the nature of the universe, but he is free. He can choose his job, has recourses with his employers, etc. Your statement implies that it's the government whic…

It sounds like you are not aware of all the 'innovation' UK has explored in 16-18th century, where people had to pay for being in jail, were charged for being judged, we had debt prisons and people ran their business from them! Also we gave cocaine to kids when their teeth hurt. These ideas are preposterous by modern standards, but people can and have come up with arrangements where a person works from jail without b…

Either the government allows the prisoner to go free 8 hours a day to make a living he sees fit, or the government dictates how the prisoner labors. In the first case, the prisoner is not a prisoner but becomes a free man. The second case is slavery.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#830

Post by JamesBarney »

vmception wrote: post #529
JamesBarney wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this what California, San Francisco, or New York do?

, .... yesn't???

They are all liberal governments with large GDPs or gdp per capitas who could implement any of these welfare programs if they chose to.
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