On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't • Hacker News Board

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#491

Post by rossdavidh » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

whack wrote: post #377

throwaway-0987 wrote: post #174

Throwaway because I don't want my co-workers to know. I was poor. My father left home when I was a kid in middle school. My mom worked part time cleaning houses and left us when she found a new husband. I dropped out of high-school in the 9th grade and went to work. Low paying jobs. I lived with my aunt on the bad side of town. Fast-forward 35 years. Today, I make about 200K per year. I got a GED, went to trade schoo…

> I made it and you can too. Poverty has no color. It impacts everyone. You can't tell just by looking at someone. I love your story. There's also a ton of people who will delight in cherry-picking your story, as justification for not expanding the social safety net. "throwaway-0987 did it, and you can too! You just need to stop being so lazy" A few factors to consider: - You had an aunt you could live with - As a yo…

If you're talking to the people in the professional class already, your points are valid. If you're talking to someone in OP's situation back then, your points are dispiriting. I know you didn't mean it that way, but it is important to a person who is in a disadvantaged situation to not hear well-meaning members of the professional class saying what sounds like, "you can't make your situation better until the whole system is changed". I think OP's statement of "I made it and you can too" was clearly aimed, not at you or me probably, but a person in the same situation that OP was in years ago.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#492

Post by munificent » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

> This is because apartments at both of these levels quite accurately assume that you can’t afford a lawyer - while it’s normal to put down a month or two worth of rent as a security deposit, it’s much less normal to get it back; the apartment complex has no reason to give back thousands of dollars they can simply keep.

This is a really key point and this behavior affects many many aspects of life.

Money is liquid power. Power is the ability to get others to do what you want. Unfortunately, power imbalances between people form an unstable equilibrium. As soon as you have a tiny bit more power over someone, the first thing you can do is use it to force them to give you more. This is, I believe, the seed of almost all inequality in the world.

One of the main accelerators of this imbalance is threat—applying power without spending it. If power worked exactly like money where to get you to do something I had to pay you, then there would be natural counter-balance towards equality. Any time someone had more power, the only useful thing they could do with it would to be spend it, which would lower their power and raise someone else's.

Unfortunately, you can often get what you want without spending any power simply by making it clear to someone that you could force them if you wanted to. They will capitulate and do what you want while you don't actually have to put any real effort in and squander any power.

In the example here, the apartment complex can afford a lawyer to argue about returning a security deposit and you can't. So you acquiesce to not getting your deposit back and they don't have to pay for a lawyer. They acquire a bit more power (cash) from you without having to spend anything to get it.

It's a shitty part of how life works.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#493

Post by pokot0 » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

trynumber9 wrote: post #394

pokot0 wrote: post #381

European pro life tip: if you make 200.000/yr don't let anyone lend you money. Buy your car cash, no cc debt. Mortgage would be the only exception. I honestly find it crazy how most american are ok with living on someone else money and pay the interests just to have a current year car...

Often you can get no interest loans for new cars. In that case, it is cheaper to invest the cash and pay off the loan with less valuable money over the next few years. Of course the car is still depreciating rapidly so I question the wisdom of buying a current year car at all. But it is comforting to have a newer car covered by warranty.

Yes, I agree with you. Specifically is the idea of considering the car a monthly cost instead of a capital investment is all in favour of financial and car companies. You will get a new model if your monthly cost does not change. In my experience, all of my cars were a great value if you own and hold onto them for 10 yrs or more (the first 10 years cars need almost 0 maintenance)

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#494

Post by throwaway99997 » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #424

buescher wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Middle class perspective: if you can buy a car for cash, but you can get a good interest rate on a loan, you may be better off taking the loan. The opportunity cost of having cash sunk into the car can be greater than your financing costs.

A basic, simple loan like this also is often good for your credit record.

Unless your credit score is absolutely perfect, the APR on a used car loan is easily 8-10%

That's a pretty big chunk of change to spend to boost your credit record

https://www.bankrate.com/loans/auto-loans/rates/

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#495

Post by toomanybeersies » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

ImaCake wrote: post #7

>while it’s normal to put down a month or two worth of rent as a security deposit, it’s much less normal to get it back This looks insane to an Australian. I have moved house 4 times in the past 5 years and I have never not got all of my bond back. Some states here have a rule that the bond money is held by the state so that the landowner doesn't just take that money for themselves. How can the poor ever break the cy…

Although bond is held by the RTBA (or whatever it's called outside Vic), it's pretty common for landlords/property managers to try and strong arm tenants into giving up part of their bond for "damages", most of which are either resonable wear and tear, pre-existing, or not the responsibility of the tenant. For poorer people, who need the money sooner than later, it's often easier to agree to get half your bond back than to apply to VCAT (not to mention a lot of tenants fear they'll get blacklisted if they do) and possibly get all your bond back several months later.

I'm currently in the process of trying to claw my bond back from my previous landlord, it's been over 3 months now. Luckily I can afford it, but I know a lot of people who can't.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#496

Post by lc9er » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

whack wrote: post #377

throwaway-0987 wrote: post #174

Throwaway because I don't want my co-workers to know. I was poor. My father left home when I was a kid in middle school. My mom worked part time cleaning houses and left us when she found a new husband. I dropped out of high-school in the 9th grade and went to work. Low paying jobs. I lived with my aunt on the bad side of town. Fast-forward 35 years. Today, I make about 200K per year. I got a GED, went to trade schoo…

> I made it and you can too. Poverty has no color. It impacts everyone. You can't tell just by looking at someone. I love your story. There's also a ton of people who will delight in cherry-picking your story, as justification for not expanding the social safety net. "throwaway-0987 did it, and you can too! You just need to stop being so lazy" A few factors to consider: - You had an aunt you could live with - As a yo…

> There's also a ton of people who will delight in cherry-picking your story, as justification for not expanding the social safety net. "throwaway-0987 did it, and you can too! You just need to stop being so lazy"

> we as a society should do more to help people who are caught in a poverty trap, especially because of poor decisions made when they were teenagers. Just because someone ran a 4-minute-mile doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect everyone to do so.

Yes. Thank you. Lots of people start out poor and make it out. I did. Many friends did. But just as many did not. And it had _zero_ to do with "hard work". Almost all of it had to with the lack of a robust safety need and the need to (endlessly) prioritize survival.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#497

Post by treis » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 6:29 PM UTC

burlesona wrote: post #167

This is a great write-up, and as someone who spent time being poor-ish, it really resonated. What I realized from my own life experience: the US sawed the bottom rungs off the ladder in the 1950s when it suburbanized. There is no affordable housing or transportation in 95% of the North American land area, and virtually every societal problem we deal with either stems from this or is made worse by it. Then the healthc…

>There is no affordable housing or transportation in 95% of the North American land area

This just isn't true. The majority of the US has cheap housing. The person who wrote the article lives in Pheonix where you can get houses for 200k or under. Like this perfectly good 3 bed 2 br for 200k:

https://www.redfin.com/AZ/Phoenix/8520-W-Palm-Ln-85037/unit-...

Housing costs are out of control in a handful of places in the US. In the rest of them it's as cheap as ever. Or even cheaper given the very low interest rates.

It can be stupid cheap to live in the US. Rent a room for $4-500, buy a late model Toyota for $5k, and eat like a poor person. It's pretty easy to accumulate enough money to break the cycle of poverty.

The big pitfall is health. If you're sick then yeah you're pretty screwed. But outside of that as long as you avoid unplanned kids, jail, and drugs it's pretty smooth sailing

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#498

Post by toomanybeersies » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

a_bonobo wrote: post #204

ImaCake wrote: post #7

>while it’s normal to put down a month or two worth of rent as a security deposit, it’s much less normal to get it back This looks insane to an Australian. I have moved house 4 times in the past 5 years and I have never not got all of my bond back. Some states here have a rule that the bond money is held by the state so that the landowner doesn't just take that money for themselves. How can the poor ever break the cy…

>I have never not got all of my bond back. Then you're lucky - I've had enough friends in QLD and WA who have had their bond partially kept back because the landlord company thought they could get a few hundred or thousand for free. Usually the trick is to say that pre-existing damage was caused by my friends. It's impossible to defend from if you don't claim the damage when you move in! I've personally only had one…

I always take photos when I start a tenancy. More often than not, the property manager/landlord tries that I caused pre-existing damage and the photos always help.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#499

Post by sigstoat » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

relaxing wrote: post #465

dahfizz wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 of the 5 factors you list boil down to "OP made good decisions and worked hard". I'm not sure how that is a counter argument to "throwaway-0987 did it, and you can too! You just need to stop being so lazy". From their description, it doesn't sound like living with his Aunt was a tremendous boon either. I don't mean to argue against a social safety net (free college in this example was certainly a good thing). I jus…

Living with anyone beats being out on the street. And probably beat being in the foster system.

> Living with anyone beats being out on the street

a lot of folks on the street disagree

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#500

Post by k__ » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

throwaway-0987 wrote: post #174

Throwaway because I don't want my co-workers to know. I was poor. My father left home when I was a kid in middle school. My mom worked part time cleaning houses and left us when she found a new husband. I dropped out of high-school in the 9th grade and went to work. Low paying jobs. I lived with my aunt on the bad side of town. Fast-forward 35 years. Today, I make about 200K per year. I got a GED, went to trade schoo…

Same here.

My father left when I was 6. My mother went cleaning to make some money. Later, she remarried and my step dad was well off, but he also had kids of his own, so it wasn't that much of an improvement.

We didn't have much and all of my childhood I played video games I borrowed from friends on PCs I built of old parts I got from friends or in the trash.

When I went to university, I suddendly met many people who had rich parents and I felt like the dumbest person around. I guess, I probably was, haha.

Since coding paid well, I could clear all my dept realatively early after my degree and now I have saved some money.

But I still have the feeling tomorrow all my clients will desert me.