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Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

npr.org

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Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#181

Post by SergeAx »

mokus wrote: post #3

The fact that Facebook appears to consider user consent an existential threat to their business model tells me everything I need to know about them right now.

Devil advocating attempt: they obviously did a measure how much of their userbase will allow the app to serve personalized ads and how it will impact their revenue. Even if it is in a ballpark of 10%, it is still a ton of money and, as a commercial enterprise acting in the interests of its shareholders, FB should do it's best to avoid or reduce potential damage.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#182

Post by eldaisfish »

reedjosh wrote: post #49
coldpie wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between this privacy fight and the form factor of the iPhone Mini, there's a 90% chance my next phone will be an iPhone after more than a decade on Android. I'm done with this ad-sponsored trash ecosystem.

Not that I blame you if you want a premium experience out of the box, but I've gone to Graphene and am quite happy. https://grapheneos.org/faq Even my SSO works well enough. Some notifications rely on Google Play Services though, but I find I don't really miss those apps anyway.

the problem here is that every single one of these alternate OSs requires advanced knowledge. Granted, it's not difficult to flash your phone via a USB cable + web interface but consider that the average smartphone user isn't even interested in removing bloatware like facebook.

The advanced knowledge i'm referring to is to first know that GrapheneOS exists, know how to enable OEM unlocking, know how to select the correct factory image and so on.

People don't care and cannot be expected to care. Apple, as much as i dislike several of their practices, provide a phone that works when you need it to. AFAIK, the iphone's primary purpose as a phone - has never had an incident where a software bug prevented someone from placing a call.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#183

Post by fairity »

wzdd wrote: post #134
fairity wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual quote: Facebook has also launched a website and taken out full-page advertisements in newspapers, in addition to a recent TV and radio ad push, to put a spotlight on how many small business owners depend on targeted ads. This is definitely a true statement. The vast majority of small businesses who advertise on FB will be hurt by this change. The best estimate to date is a 20-30% drop in marketing efficien…

> This is definitely a true statement. The vast majority of small businesses who advertise on FB will be hurt by this change. I don't think I've ever seen a source for this. Could you post one, ideally one which is not subject to conflicts of interest (e.g. funded by the advertising industry)?

Imo, the conclusion around "worse marketing efficiency" is a logical extension from how Facebook's ad ecosystem works.

That is, Facebook is a behemoth in advertising because of its capabilities to predict which users will convert from an ad unit. By predicting conversion rate accurately, FB empower small businesses to get more conversions out of fewer ad impressions and spend.

FB's ability to predict conversion rate is driven by a ML algorithm that takes as inputs: all the user data it tracks via the Facebook Pixel, all the user data it collects through its own domains, and data sent via server API's from advertisers.

Apple's tracking change reduces the amount of available user data to its ML algo by a large percentage.

As a result, prediction power will decrease. And therefore, marketing efficiency.

The actual 20-30% estimate is just that, an estimate. But, directionally, there's no question efficiency will decrease.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#184

Post by [deleted] »

Nextgrid wrote: post #119
antattack wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple just wants to be exclusive gateway to Apple customers. We are a product to both companies, even if Apple appears the lesser evil.

Apple's incentives appear aligned with their customers. Facebook's are completely opposed.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#185

Post by drewvolpe »

Nextgrid wrote: post #119
antattack wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple just wants to be exclusive gateway to Apple customers. We are a product to both companies, even if Apple appears the lesser evil.

Apple's incentives appear aligned with their customers. Facebook's are completely opposed.

"You're Apple's customer and Facebook's product" is often repeated but completely true in this case. It's all about incentives.

Apple makes money by selling more products which means they innovate by making Watches, Earpods, M1, etc. Facebook makes money by selling your attention and data, which meants they innovate by extracting data from every experience they can (Oculus, Whatsapp, ...), using more complex technologies (Facebook AI), and encouraging whatever behaviors create more ad spend (hint: outrage).

Add in the fact that Apple has made privacy a core part of their brand promise and it means that Apple has strong incentives to protect their customers in a way that most companies, especially Facebook, do not.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#186

Post by cutthegrass2 »

ChrisKnott wrote: post #39
whoisburbansky wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a nice bit of semantic ju-jitsu to say "they take this data and sell a service that wouldn't be possible without it" isn't the same as "selling this data," isn't it? Especially given that the targeting mechanisms don't have any k-anonymity guarantees, and I'm aware of at least one paper showing information leaks through the ad portal [1] https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_events/122...

Seems to me like you're more playing "semantic ju-jitsu" than OP. Facebook collect data to sell targetted adspace, they do not sell data. This is a plain fact.

They may not "sell" access to user data, but they certainly allow access to it:

"In total, it said the social network had special arrangements with more than 150 companies to share its members' personal data. Most of these, it said, were other tech firms, but the list also included online retailers, car-makers and media organisations, including the NYT itself, among others."

source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46618582

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#187

Post by Loughla »

iscrewyou wrote: post #12

It’s so hard to feel bad for Facebook. They’ve made shadow profiles for non-Facebook users for crying out loud! But they are really going out of their way to oppose Apple on this move. The burger restaurant clip in the audio...couldn’t they still target users just based on interests? And not actually linking those interests to a specific person? And on the other hand, I don’t hear much from Google.

I heard the burger lady on npr this morning.

I can't get that article to load, so I'm hoping they address how she knows that 90% of her business comes from facebook, and how hyper targeted ads are more effective than just geo-located tags.

It seems like ads for her business would be good for users within 'x' number of miles/blocks/whatever of her business, and not necessarily based on their interests, correct?

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#188

Post by jf »

Spooky23 wrote: post #84
mokus wrote: post #3

The fact that Facebook appears to consider user consent an existential threat to their business model tells me everything I need to know about them right now.

It's really weird. I don't think the "threat" is the obvious one... Nobody trusts Facebook -- many, if not most, people honestly believe they listen to their conversations already. The real message is how emotional and immature the leadership is to a perceived slight. A message that said "Cigarettes will kill you" didn't stop smokers, and some label won't stop Facebook users or meaningfully impact Facebook. Hell, whe…

(I think you meant antagonist?)

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#189

Post by spoonjim »

Well, looks like NPR is fake news now. “That gives [Facebook] reams of personal data on who we are and what we are doing, which it then vacuums up, packages and sells.”

Even the most cursory investigation will reveal that Facebook does not sell this data as it is too valuable, they just rent out access to your eyeballs.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#190

Post by lwhi »

dnh44 wrote: post #176
lwhi wrote: post #133

This tracking needs to be reduced, I applaud Apple for helping progress this. Next order of business is removing the Apple's marketplace monopolisation; the App Store should not be the only marketplace available.

>the App Store should not be the only marketplace available. Wouldn't Facebook then simply stop distributing it's app through the Apple App Store and then create it's own app store that doesn't have any of the anti-tracking restrictions?

I think the issue is there two funding models at play.

Advertising vs. paid content.

Apple wants the tide to switch to paid content, and want to encourage people to do so through their own merchant gateways.

In my opinion, this feel reasonable _only_ if consumers have real choice. Telling users they can use a different platform if they're not happy, is not real choice.

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