Live data from Hacker News

Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

newsweek.com

191–200 of 212 posts

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woke culture is an abhorrent movement that combines the coercive dynamics of Marxism with the racism of national socialism. It's not about removing racism, it's about consolidating power by forcing everyone into compliance. Actual racial segregation is already happening in the US because of it and worse things are bound to happen. Everyone will be worse off if this is given free reign.

What are the commonalties that link this sort of neo-racism with Marxism? I’m somewhat familiar with Marx (mostly second-hand) but most of his writing seemed to focus on analysis of economics, historical forces and people’s relationship with the means of production.

Marx was writing in Victorian London, somewhere that was racially homogenous. The distinctions between people were all related to wealth and social class. If he lived in modern America he would certainly have talked a lot about race and gender instead. His worldview was essentially an apocalyptic one which saw the world divided into oppressors (the bourgeoisie) and the oppressed (the proletariat), in which all injustice came from this unnecessary division and in which the oppressors would be forced out of existence through revolution. He predicted that the result would be a utopia.

DiAngelo bears some striking resemblances to Marx, and not only in terms of her binary, literally black and white worldview.

Marx was a wannabe academic who devoted his life to writing books about the oppression of the working classes. He lived off the largesse of patrons and supporters, notably Engels, but also his own family, and thus never had a "real" job in the sense the working classes would have recognised. DiAngelo is an actual academic who derives the majority of her income from preaching to her political supporters, although she cloaks it in the language of "training". A major criticism of Marx both in his time and after was that he had no real idea of anything he was talking about, for example he wrote extensively about factory conditions in England but had never actually been to a factory and in fact rejected his friend Engel's invitation to visit one. He wrote extensively about the working classes but had no working class friends or acquaintances beyond his housemaid, whom he abused terribly. Instead his knowledge of the world came entirely from reading books and thus ended up often distorted or wrong, for example, he had a habit of criticising factory conditions from decades earlier which had in fact been fixed via British regulation - something that in his world view wasn't supposed to be possible.

We can see echoes of all this in the way that DiAngelo (a white woman) and her followers (almost all whites) are obsessed with systemic racism, even though genuine systemic racism of the form "blacks may not enter this bar" was wiped out decades ago in the USA. Like Marx, they often rely on sleight-of-hand to argue the problem is still present and unfixable without enormous social change.

Marx's books were filled with impenetrable academic language and terms that nobody outside his small 'intellectual' circles would have understood, e.g. the term "proletariat" which had fallen into disuse since Roman times was revived by an obscure Swiss economist and then adopted by Marx, with nothing in between, thus only a tiny number of people would have understood this word. Marx's writings are still largely unintelligible even to modern readers well acquainted with his ideas. Consider this passage:

"The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses. Theory is capable of gripping the masses as soon as it demonstrates ad hominem, and it demonstrates ad hominem as soon as it becomes radical. To be radical is to grasp the root of the matter. But, for man, the root is man himself."

The language is English but trying to parse insight or meaning from this paragraph is very difficult. Likewise "White Privilege" and the many similar articles are filled with text that feels like something written by GPT-2 to anyone outside the tiny circle of academics in that community. Here's an abstract from an academic paper of the genre (not by DiAngelo but someone very similar):

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1367549420985852

"Using #MeToo as a starting point, this paper argues that the cultural power of mainstream white feminism partly derives from the cultural power of white tears. This in turn depends on the dehumanisation of people of colour, who were constructed in colonial ‘race science’ as incapable of complex feeling (Schuller, 2018). Colonialism also created a circuit between bourgeois white women’s tears and white men’s rage, often activated by allegations of rape, which operated in the service of economic extraction and exploitation. This circuit endures, abetting the criminal punishment system and the weaponisation of ‘women’s safety’ by the various border regimes of the right. It has especially been utilised by reactionary forms of feminism, which set themselves against sex workers and trans people. Such feminisms exemplify what I call ‘political whiteness’, which centres assertions of victimhood: through these, womanhood (and personhood) is claimed to the exclusion of the enemy"

Not only does this text have the similar highly abstract, rambling feeling of Marxist writing but it even uses the same obsolete Marx-only words, like "bourgeoise"!

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, it is also beyond question that there is at least some marginal disenfranchisement experienced by certain people purely on the basis of their appearance Most of the focus today is on what’s called “systemic racism” which is a real thing and is based more on structural disparities associated with skin color rather than skin color in and of itself. For example, wealth in Black families undercut by redlining,…

Which leads to the more fundamental question of how society should stop bad ideas leaking out of the professoriate and into the real world. That in turn raises difficult questions about the structure of academia and universities, its general lack of accountability, the near-total lack of progress on basics like the replication crisis, the prevalence of bizarre and extreme ideologies at supposedly 'elite' teaching ins…

>Which leads to the more fundamental question of how society should stop bad ideas leaking out of the professoriate and into the real world.

The consensus on Hacker News has always been that we shouldn't, that any attempt to do so is a slippery slope that leads to tyranny, because free speech must be absolute and non-negotiable, regardless of content, truth or consequence. "I may object to what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it," is the thought-terminating cliche often employed in the myriad other threads where free speech becomes a topic.

If this thread were about controversial right-wing speech, you would be shouted down as a bigot and a fascist for even suggesting that ideas can be "wrong" and "harmful." You would probably be one of the people doing the shouting down, as you've argued for free speech absolutism in other threads, and against deplatforming, cancel culture and other "leftist" and "SJW" attacks on free speech.

If it's not a problem when it's anti-vaxxers, neo-Nazis, racists or QAnon plotting a coup, it shouldn't be a problem here.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Identifying leftism as a harmful ideology is certainly a critical step, however it's very difficult to gain traction with that because the term "leftism" is very, very close to "left wing politics", which is strongly normalised as being entirely acceptable in civilised society and always has been since the start of modern democracy itself. Indeed if you try and figure out where the line is between leftism and left wi…

> Identifying leftism as a harmful ideology is certainly a critical step, however it's very difficult to gain traction with that because the term "leftism" is very, very close to "left wing politics" They aren't “very close”, they are exact synonyms. > Unfortunately whilst there is an abundance of words to describe the new left wing politics (woke, wokeism, leftism, identity politics, critical theory, neo-Marxism, "a…

Nobody uses the term identity politics to mean white supremacism. Even the left don't use the term that way.

Marxism is not the right label to describe the post-1950s left wing politics in most countries. Yes, there were fringe wings that were openly Marxist but most left wing politics was committed to incremental change through the ballot box, not total revolution.

They aren't “very close”, they are exact synonyms.

At least I perceive shades of difference in how they're normally used.

"Leftism" is used to refer to a rather extreme, virulent ideology, typified by the conviction that conservatism of any kind of a sort of evil that needs to be wiped out or suppressed. There are no mainstream parties in the west formally espousing leftism, although in the USA the Democrats are now becoming dangerously close to that with their explicitly racial/gender based appointment of Kamala Harris, and some of their recent demands to take Fox News off air.

Left wing politics is a far more mainstream movement found throughout the democratic world. Its focus is typically on economic issues that affect the working classes, they advocate for nationalisation and/or the general pulling of power to the centre, they recognise the legitimacy of their conservative oppositions and in many European countries often enter into coalitions or power sharing arrangements with them. Left wing politics is, at most, the politics of Bernie Sanders or Jeremy Corbyn. And in its more common instantiation, it's more like the politics of Tony Blair. Left wing politicians have up until very recently not been overtly promoting "leftism" in the hard-core sense seen today, but that's now changing.

To me the key difference is whether someone recognises disagreement as legitimate. Even when in very strong political positions, throughout most of the 20st century left wing parties have not tried to suppress their opposition. The exceptions are of course the communist countries, but those parties are hardly referred to as left wing, even though technically they were very much so.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#194
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which leads to the more fundamental question of how society should stop bad ideas leaking out of the professoriate and into the real world. That in turn raises difficult questions about the structure of academia and universities, its general lack of accountability, the near-total lack of progress on basics like the replication crisis, the prevalence of bizarre and extreme ideologies at supposedly 'elite' teaching ins…

>Which leads to the more fundamental question of how society should stop bad ideas leaking out of the professoriate and into the real world. The consensus on Hacker News has always been that we shouldn't, that any attempt to do so is a slippery slope that leads to tyranny, because free speech must be absolute and non-negotiable, regardless of content, truth or consequence. "I may object to what you say, but I will de…

I wasn't thinking of actual censorship. The bad ideas arise because the people in question are being funded by a government that doesn't really care or have any way to judge whether the ideas are good. Just requiring them to find their own funding would go a long way. It wouldn't stop DiAngelo now because she already gained critical mass and found ways to parlay that into money via training programmes, but would this stuff have arisen without large numbers of bored humanities profs looking for some meaning and purpose, and able to spend so much time on this thanks to grant money?

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Identifying leftism as a harmful ideology is certainly a critical step, however it's very difficult to gain traction with that because the term "leftism" is very, very close to "left wing politics" They aren't “very close”, they are exact synonyms. > Unfortunately whilst there is an abundance of words to describe the new left wing politics (woke, wokeism, leftism, identity politics, critical theory, neo-Marxism, "a…

Nobody uses the term identity politics to mean white supremacism. Even the left don't use the term that way. Marxism is not the right label to describe the post-1950s left wing politics in most countries. Yes, there were fringe wings that were openly Marxist but most left wing politics was committed to incremental change through the ballot box, not total revolution. They aren't “very close”, they are exact synonyms.…

> Nobody uses the term identity politics to mean white supremacism.

Plenty of people use it for a phenomenon which includes, but is broader than, White supremacy.

https://books.google.com/books/about/White_Identity_Politics...

https://www.vox.com/2019/4/26/18306125/white-identity-politi...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/who-does-t...

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-disturbing-surpri...

https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/july-august-2019/the-...

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/2019-10-...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/maiahoskin/2020/10/14/the-uglin...

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/white-identity-p...

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25704860?seq=1

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-trumps-use-of-white-...

https://newrepublic.com/article/138230/rise-white-identity-p...

https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/flr/vol87/iss4/4/

https://brill.com/view/title/55875

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-identity-polit...

http://www.bu.edu/articles/2020/identity-politics-election-2...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/20/opinion/trump-race-immigr...

> Marxism is not the right label to describe the post-1950s left wing politics in most countries.

In your original post you said “old left wing politics” not “post-1950s left-wing politics”, but even with the clarification, that probably depends on whether or not you include Leninism, Stalinism, and Maoism within Marxism (I don't, but most of both the Right and people who agree with Leninism, Stalinism, and Maoism do). If you do include those things, Marxism is, if not covering the left of an absolute majority of countries, at least the single most dominant left-wing movement of the post-1950s and pre-about-1990s period.

If you mean to restrict things to the developed West, then “Socialism" is fairly accurate if somewhat broad, but then Western Cold War era leftism was itself pretty broad.

> Left wing politics is, at most, the politics of Bernie Sanders or Jeremy Corbyn

Corbyn and Sanders are barely left-wing.

> And in its more common instantiation, it's more like the politics of Tony Blair.

Tony Blair, like Bill Clinton in the US, was part of an 80s/90s center-right reaction against left-wing politics that took over previously left-leaning (overtly Socialist, in the case of the UK Labour Party, more confused in the US Democratic Party case because of the ongoing overlapping post-New Deal and post-Civil Rights Act partisan realignments) parties.

Blair, like Clinton, was no kind of left-wing politician, and certainly not typical of the post-1950s left wing in his country.

Though if you are using “leftism” to mean actual leftism and “left-wing" to mean 1980s-1990s center-right neoliberal “Third Way” reaction, then, yeah, they are very different things.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#196
post #95
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "White" isn't a racial group. I understand the academic underpinnings of that idea, but that's not how normal people understand the term "white." The Bureau of the Census, for example, certainly appears the believe that "white" reflects a racial category: https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html .

Sure, but the history of the term matters in this context & maybe should be taught a little more. Like when we grow up these days, we sorta get the idea that White or Black are these inherent traits that people naturally have and have always had. We rarely get the chance to see that the idea of whiteness comes from a need of protecting an in-group from exploitation, while excusing and justifying the exploitation of o…

I'd love to hear from you newmnhn please email me through my profile. Specifically want to talk Scene On Radio "Seeing White".

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#197
post #179
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the history of the term matters in this context & maybe should be taught a little more. Like when we grow up these days, we sorta get the idea that White or Black are these inherent traits that people naturally have and have always had. We rarely get the chance to see that the idea of whiteness comes from a need of protecting an in-group from exploitation, while excusing and justifying the exploitation of o…

dang: there are several informative polite posts on this sub thread voted down to oblivion, perhaps brigaded? These are legitimate ideas, important to the conversation.

Also the whole post got flagged and it's title changed this morning. Atleast we were allowed to have discussion for the day. Similar threads on HN were flagged early on within an hour and died silently.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#198
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the big problems with this entire conversation is the definition of terms. The word “white” has been defined hundreds of ways within the “woke” literature and multicultural academics - some of them having no connection to skin color. The nuance and depth of thought that has gone into these academic discussions is elided and you end up with “be less white” which is clearly and obviously inflammatory to a whole…

You're correct, but I think you're missing that this is done intentionally. I've heard it referred to as "humpty-dumpying", referring to the character is Through the Looking-Glass: > "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question…

To give some balance, we do that too as computer people. The question "what is a computer" has increasingly refined and sometimes contradictory answers.

To the layperson, it's a box that can run software and probably had blinking lights, and that's good enough. Ask an engineer, they'll talk about RAM and CPUs. Ask computer scientists, and they'll talk about Turing completeness. Or even say something seemingly contradictory to an outsider, like "computer science isn't about computers". And even among experts, you'll get disagreements for things like "is a calculator a computer? An FPGA? An abacus?"

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#199

As a brown person and hopefully a champion of reason, I would like to encourage you white folks to be a bit less obedient and compliant with this madness. It is long past time that this ideology was firmly and squarely rejected, contested, questioned. Leftist ideology is extremely troubling and has devolved into a cult. It should never have been possible for an ideology of this quality to co-opt all these orthogonal…

Here's the problem though, and for the record I fully agree with you; It's enough of a third-rail-topic that I can't even respond to this with my normal account; we're already seeing enough attempts at crime-by-association (SSC and the latest accusations) that combined with an apparently welcome tendency to examine all past actions for transgression, even if I thought I had something to say that was currently within…

The dynamic where white people feel scared to say what they think is right ultimately silences people of color. Because white people are the majority, what society at large understands about what people of color actually think and want is filtered through white people. In the current environment, white people are in an awkward position where it's socially acceptable to agree with far-out progressive views, but not moderate views that are closer to what people of color themselves actually think and believe.

I don't want a society where white people are told at work they need to "be less white," or are forced to admit they are "gatekeepers of white supremacy." It's morally wrong--it's racism. But it's also contrary to my self interest as a brown guy with a beard living in a majority-white society. My mom, an immigrant from a Muslim country, texted me Trump's ban on critical-race theory training when it came out, apropos nothing. She thought it was a good idea, because it was "evil." My dad, who almost became a professor, is a bit more blasé--he thinks "this is just a weird academic idea and it's fine as long as it stays in academia."

But at the end of the day, white progressives who control the newsrooms of places like the New York Times decide what people of color to platform and amplify, and they don't pick people like my parents to speak for people of color. They pick people like Ilhan Omar, who has extreme views. (My dad noted the other day, again apropos nothing, that he was upset the media had turned Omar into the "face of Muslims in America.")

If white people feel free to agree that we should tell white people to "be less white," but not to disagree, if they feel free to agree with Ilhan Omar, but not express views like my parents, then people of color who agree with the common-sense view are effectively silenced.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#200

The quote in the title of the article is really an inappropriate way to try to describe inclusiveness. It’s not about being less, it’s about including others more.

For you maybe, do you speak for everyone else? There are definitely a lot of people who want to reduce whiteness, not just include others more. A concrete example is media capitalizing Black but not white in reference to people. There's also this statement that apparently you would agree with, yet many people got upset by: "It's Okay To Be White". There's even a wikipedia article on it. Inclusiveness is not the same…

I am not "ok to be white". This specific sentence is a dog whistle to show acceptance of white supremacy. I would instead say that the privilege associated with my whiteness is maddening, and must be decried.

What I don't like is a corporation including training material telling its employees to "be less white". This is confrontational, and in my point of view could cause more harm to minority groups. When you can, it is better to focus on teaching someone to reinforce positive aspects than to teach them to stop negative behaviours.

But as a general point of view of Western society in general, I do think it should be less white.

Post reply on HN