Live data from Hacker News

Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

newsweek.com

171–180 of 212 posts

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#171
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racial inequality is not an "artificially inflated issue." Studies show that, despite reduction in de jure racism over the past 70 years, Black-white income gaps are large (with Black incomes being 19 percentile points below white incomes in the income distribution), and also persistent. Meanwhile, the incomes of other groups (Latinos, Asians) have or are in the process of converging with those of whites. So there is…

You're assuming racism is the cause of the gaps. Big assumption. Out of wedlock births alone will explain a gap of that size: more than 70% of black American children are born out of wedlock. That's a disastrous figure, an emergency really. There is no point wasting a moment's time on imagined racism when variables like that are looming so large. If that behavior doesn't change, there will be no closing of any gaps.

I wonder would happen if single-parenting was controller for? Would outcomes come up to par with other races?

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#172
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming racism is the cause of the gaps. Big assumption. Out of wedlock births alone will explain a gap of that size: more than 70% of black American children are born out of wedlock. That's a disastrous figure, an emergency really. There is no point wasting a moment's time on imagined racism when variables like that are looming so large. If that behavior doesn't change, there will be no closing of any gaps.

I wonder would happen if single-parenting was controller for? Would outcomes come up to par with other races?

It will be a chunk. It accounts for a lot of income variance in existing research, like Chetty's at Harvard. He and his colleagues seemed to bury the effect though in at least one of their papers on "inequality", which is frustrating since the effect size was the largest of all their predictors. They're ideologically biased, which is a huge problem in social "science" right now, and they don't want to talk about anything related to individuals' own behavior ot choices. They prefer to focus on blaming exogenous factors, society, etc.

IQ score differences are huge, and I'm not sure that anyone knows why. We might not have the full picture there for another 50+ years. At this point it would very difficult to even research it given that leftists will try to destroy your career if you do (e.g. the SPLC will smear you as a "white supremacist" if you research or discover or report group differences that are unfavorable to a non-white group, as they have smeared Charles Murray). The black-white IQ differences are greater than one standard deviation, which was very confusing to discover in graduate school – I had no idea. Since IQ predicts income, there is little chance of income parity anytime soon, unless we can find a sort of loophole around that relationship. But we won't be finding any loopholes or workarounds if we're not allowed to research it, so...

The out-of-wedlock birth rate and the IQ disparity are beefy predictors because they're so large in magnitude. Those two variables virtually guarantee a large income difference. There's really no way for a group to make as much money as another group if they're having 72% of their kids out-of-wedlock when the other group is at 20-25%, and also spotting the other group maybe 14+ points on mean IQ. Given those starting conditions, I wouldn't even worry about racism or talk about racism. I would focus on the things that I know are real and the I know are having a huge impact. There isn't any evidence of an equivalent effect of racism. That would be interesting to think about. For racism to be as punchy as out-of-wedlock births or IQ, we would need to see a situation like where basically black college graduates couldn't get jobs due to simple racial discrimination, at a really punchy rate. We don't see that. Systemic racism doesn't exist in the US by any definition I would think of based simply on the term. It seems to reduce to subjective construals through a leftist abstraction layer and symbolic/ideological framework. In other words, you need to be a leftist to see it, and if you don't see this invisible thing, you're a bad person. It's an arbitrary ideology at that point, and the timing is nothing short of predominant.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#173

As a brown person and hopefully a champion of reason, I would like to encourage you white folks to be a bit less obedient and compliant with this madness. It is long past time that this ideology was firmly and squarely rejected, contested, questioned. Leftist ideology is extremely troubling and has devolved into a cult. It should never have been possible for an ideology of this quality to co-opt all these orthogonal…

Here's the problem though, and for the record I fully agree with you;

It's enough of a third-rail-topic that I can't even respond to this with my normal account; we're already seeing enough attempts at crime-by-association (SSC and the latest accusations) that combined with an apparently welcome tendency to examine all past actions for transgression, even if I thought I had something to say that was currently within the overton window I'd be hesitant to put it on the internet because of how the winds seem to be blowing.

I _certainly_ would not speak negatively of any of these programs at work, that would be an excellent way to end my career (putting this bluntly, you have more leeway than a white man does in speaking up about these things at this juncture; but even that has limits, look at the diversity chief of Apple who was let go.)

I worry this becomes a vicious cycle. We're already past the point that many reasonable voices disengage out of fear, so there is very little pushback until this has gone far enough to become untenable. (And this shouldn't be taken as some right wing dogwhistle, there have been HN articles lately detailing papers showing that this fear is present across the spectrum; and it's somewhat emblemic that I need to clarify this point.)

We're watching the iron law of oligarchy played out in an ideology.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#174
post #49

I first heard this notion of trying to "be less white" in the context of Robin DiAngelo: https://www.aei.org/op-eds/anti-racist-education-is-anything... . I found it alarming, but people assured me she was just a crackpot. To see such rhetoric become normalized enough to be presented in training materials for a Fortune 500 company is truly disturbing.[1] Rhetoric like this is deeply problematic, especially for mixed-…

> To her, "white privilege" is an academic abstraction. She grew up in real poverty and never went to college. By contrast, "be less white" is quite easy to understand as a statement of overt racism. And, perplexingly to her, its overt racism that's evidently being given sanction at the highest levels of our society. This is absolutely true and needs to more vocally and explicitly acknowledged. As explanatory variabl…

> However, it is also beyond question that there is at least some marginal disenfranchisement experienced by certain people purely on the basis of their appearance

Most of the focus today is on what’s called “systemic racism” which is a real thing and is based more on structural disparities associated with skin color rather than skin color in and of itself. For example, wealth in Black families undercut by redlining, etc. These disparities are not only real, they’re large, and they’re not shrinking.

We can (and should) talk about these things. But inverting that, and talking about “white privilege” isn’t either sound nor effective. “White privilege” includes, for example, the fact that the median Black person makes about the same income as a White person at the 33rd percentile of income. Put differently, a white person enjoys “white privilege” because there was a statistically better chance they’d be born into a higher income family. (Specifically, a 66% chance of having an income higher than 50% of Black households.) That makes sense from an academic point of view, to people with college degrees. It comes across as complete gibberish to my grandmother in law and some of my wife’s aunts, who are solidly in the bottom 1/3 of white incomes, and spent much of their lives below even that. The counter-factual hypothetical the income distribution of white people in general is meaningless to them. All they hear is that most Black people make more money than they do, yet they’re the ones being accused of having “white privilege.”

The problem is exactly the issue of applying generalizations to specific people. If you explained the statistics to my grandmother in law, that white people on average make significantly more money than Black people on average, she would get it. She didn’t go to college, but that’s within her ambit. It’s where you take the generalization about white people, and tell her as an individual white person that she’s somehow “privileged” despite growing up dirt poor that you’re going to lose her.

The lessons we 90s kids learned in school were the right ones. Don’t generalize about people based on their skin color. These new ideas from college professors are wrong ideas.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what, you're admitting it's not a race issue but an education issue?

That depends - are you willing to admit that the education issue is a race issue? Race, income and school quality are highly correlated in the US: poor neighborhood = poor education. The fact that immigrants (who were not poor in the old country - immigration is expensive) bypass low-quality education doesn't mean it's not a race issue, it just means they are not useful as a control group. Ruby Bridges, the first bla…

How are you measuring poor education?

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends - are you willing to admit that the education issue is a race issue? Race, income and school quality are highly correlated in the US: poor neighborhood = poor education. The fact that immigrants (who were not poor in the old country - immigration is expensive) bypass low-quality education doesn't mean it's not a race issue, it just means they are not useful as a control group. Ruby Bridges, the first bla…

How are you measuring poor education?

States actually measure this: pick any metric you want (you may choose any of dropout rate, pass rate, sport budget, student:teacher ratio, college admission rate for a start) and compare how each school is doing compared to the average.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#177
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insulting and demeaning racial groups is the opposite of inclusion. It breeds resentment and hatred. For a time there was a focus on treating people as human and not as [racial/sex/religion] Trend these days is to encourage openly being a bigot, just as long as it’s against certain people. Replace the word white with any other social group and perhaps you’ll see the problem.

"White" isn't a racial group. "White" as an idea to describe a group of (roughly) light skinned European people, came about in order to justify enslaving and subjugating other groups. Various groups worked their way into being considered white over time, in part by contributing to the subjugation of others. And various groups once considered white, later were not considered so. "White" as what you call a "social grou…

It’s a tragedy I had to go so far into the thread to find this and then see it downvoted.

While it’s true that people don’t understand what “white” is, that’s no reason not to do the right thing. Be less white.

It doesn’t mean any of us as white individuals have to feel bad.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was trained as a census taker back in the day. We were instructed that “race and ethnicity” was explicitly ‘self identified/defined’ not based on any physical, cultural, or geographical origin. If a respondent wanted to write “Minnesotan” or “dog” in that box we were to accept it at face value.

This should be a grass roots movement. Stop filling out your “correct race and ethnicity”. If it doesn’t matter then it doesn’t matter right?

I think there’s a lot of potential in this idea.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#179
post #95
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "White" isn't a racial group. I understand the academic underpinnings of that idea, but that's not how normal people understand the term "white." The Bureau of the Census, for example, certainly appears the believe that "white" reflects a racial category: https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html .

Sure, but the history of the term matters in this context & maybe should be taught a little more. Like when we grow up these days, we sorta get the idea that White or Black are these inherent traits that people naturally have and have always had. We rarely get the chance to see that the idea of whiteness comes from a need of protecting an in-group from exploitation, while excusing and justifying the exploitation of o…

dang: there are several informative polite posts on this sub thread voted down to oblivion, perhaps brigaded? These are legitimate ideas, important to the conversation.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you measuring poor education?

States actually measure this: pick any metric you want (you may choose any of dropout rate, pass rate, sport budget, student:teacher ratio, college admission rate for a start) and compare how each school is doing compared to the average.

I can't find any student:teacher ratio statistics anywhere. Are you sure it's different by race?
Post reply on HN