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Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

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Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#161

Post by Solar19 »

rayiner wrote: post #69
ceilingcorner wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is like watching an empire die. Hyperfocused on obscure artificially-inflated issues while basic utilities cease functioning.

Racial inequality is not an "artificially inflated issue." Studies show that, despite reduction in de jure racism over the past 70 years, Black-white income gaps are large (with Black incomes being 19 percentile points below white incomes in the income distribution), and also persistent. Meanwhile, the incomes of other groups (Latinos, Asians) have or are in the process of converging with those of whites. So there is…

You're assuming racism is the cause of the gaps. Big assumption. Out of wedlock births alone will explain a gap of that size: more than 70% of black American children are born out of wedlock. That's a disastrous figure, an emergency really. There is no point wasting a moment's time on imagined racism when variables like that are looming so large. If that behavior doesn't change, there will be no closing of any gaps.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#162

Post by Solar19 »

As a brown person and hopefully a champion of reason, I would like to encourage you white folks to be a bit less obedient and compliant with this madness. It is long past time that this ideology was firmly and squarely rejected, contested, questioned. Leftist ideology is extremely troubling and has devolved into a cult.

It should never have been possible for an ideology of this quality to co-opt all these orthogonal communities and organizations and workplaces. This climate of fear, intimidation, and dog-whistle-whistling is unacceptable if we're going to have a decent civilization. I think those of you who disagree with leftist ideology need to be a lot more vocal about it. When your employer, of all things, tries to shove this ideology down your throat, say No. Hard no. Make it clear that you're no more interested in such indoctrination than you would be in a Scientology brown bag or a mandatory prayer break. You need to surface your ethical and substantive disagreement with this political ideology, and to make it crystal clear that it is in fact a partisan political ideology that is being "taught".

This has gone on long enough. It's time to push leftists into the normal cult boundaries that any civilization must have. I think we need to take civilization a bit more seriously than we have – I wouldn't assume that civilization can survive arbitrary ideological assaults. And the stress that leftists are causing everyone, including themselves, is a non-trivial harm and ethically relevant.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#163

Post by sangnoir »

azinman2 wrote: post #126
sangnoir wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends - are you willing to admit that the education issue is a race issue? Race, income and school quality are highly correlated in the US: poor neighborhood = poor education. The fact that immigrants (who were not poor in the old country - immigration is expensive) bypass low-quality education doesn't mean it's not a race issue, it just means they are not useful as a control group. Ruby Bridges, the first bla…

You’re also ignoring the impact of cultural values here. Education is particularly favored in Nigerian cultures, especially amongst immigrants.

> You’re also ignoring the impact of cultural values here.

You may also be ignoring the impact of immigration policy: there are a limited number of ways for Nigerians to (legally) get into the US - they no longer qualify for the DV program (unlike other immigrants who do not have a similar selection pressure). If you filter for educated Nigerians by leaving only F/M visa as a way to get into the country, you get mostly Nigerians who value education who qualified for the respective visa's (and their offspring) - there is nothing inherent to Nigerian culture there.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#164

Post by sangnoir »

alea_iacta_est wrote: post #130
sangnoir wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends - are you willing to admit that the education issue is a race issue? Race, income and school quality are highly correlated in the US: poor neighborhood = poor education. The fact that immigrants (who were not poor in the old country - immigration is expensive) bypass low-quality education doesn't mean it's not a race issue, it just means they are not useful as a control group. Ruby Bridges, the first bla…

> That depends - are you willing to admit that the education issue is a race issue? There is no uneducated white people who experience a massive income gap maybe?

I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#165

Post by azinman2 »

sangnoir wrote: post #163
azinman2 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re also ignoring the impact of cultural values here. Education is particularly favored in Nigerian cultures, especially amongst immigrants.

> You’re also ignoring the impact of cultural values here. You may also be ignoring the impact of immigration policy: there are a limited number of ways for Nigerians to (legally) get into the US - they no longer qualify for the DV program (unlike other immigrants who do not have a similar selection pressure). If you filter for educated Nigerians by leaving only F/M visa as a way to get into the country, you get most…

But then you'd expect to see the same thing for other groups subject to such immigration policy, but you don't [1]:

> The data showed 27 percent of non-Hispanic white Americans have bachelor’s degrees and 8 percent hold master’s degrees, according to the 2015 census. The survey also revealed that 4 percent of Nigerians in the U.S. have doctorates, compared to 1 percent of white Americans. And Nigerian-Americans’ education achievements top those of any other U.S. immigrant group. Asians come closest, with 12 percent holding master’s degrees and 3 percent having doctorates.

This article and it's viewpoint on the culture matches what my friends who are either Nigerian or have lived in Nigeria tell me. I believe it's also one of the main reasons that Jews have been able to do so well financially as a minority despite a long history of oppression -- education helps free you from being a victim to the dominate modes of sidelining a given group (I am Jewish and this certainly has been a big factor in both my family's values and others that I know, and has allowed my own family to escape poverty in Russia).

[1] https://www.ozy.com/around-the-world/why-nigerian-americans-...

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#166

Post by sangnoir »

azinman2 wrote: post #165
sangnoir wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’re also ignoring the impact of cultural values here. You may also be ignoring the impact of immigration policy: there are a limited number of ways for Nigerians to (legally) get into the US - they no longer qualify for the DV program (unlike other immigrants who do not have a similar selection pressure). If you filter for educated Nigerians by leaving only F/M visa as a way to get into the country, you get most…

But then you'd expect to see the same thing for other groups subject to such immigration policy, but you don't [1]: > The data showed 27 percent of non-Hispanic white Americans have bachelor’s degrees and 8 percent hold master’s degrees, according to the 2015 census. The survey also revealed that 4 percent of Nigerians in the U.S. have doctorates, compared to 1 percent of white Americans. And Nigerian-Americans’ educ…

> But then you'd expect to see the same thing for other groups subject to such immigration policy, but you don't

Proving my theory wrong would require showing a country that is subject to the same policy, but somehow not supplying educated immigrants. If "Asia" here includes the Indian subcontinent, then I believe the article bolsters my point.

The only other country I'm aware of, that is subject to the same immigration policy is India; while I do not have the stats on hand, my gut is that Indian immigrants have higher than average incomes, are generally more educated, and/or are biased to careers in technology since that industry makes heavy use of one of the more reliable immigration paths remaining to them - the H1-B.

Random immigrants (from anywhere on earth) outperform born-Americans on income and entrepreneurship - regardless of their prior education (you can chalk this to self-selection and/or motivation). Putting in an additional filter on higher education just skews the bias further

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#167

Post by rebelos »

rayiner wrote: post #49

I first heard this notion of trying to "be less white" in the context of Robin DiAngelo: https://www.aei.org/op-eds/anti-racist-education-is-anything... . I found it alarming, but people assured me she was just a crackpot. To see such rhetoric become normalized enough to be presented in training materials for a Fortune 500 company is truly disturbing.[1] Rhetoric like this is deeply problematic, especially for mixed-…

> To her, "white privilege" is an academic abstraction. She grew up in real poverty and never went to college. By contrast, "be less white" is quite easy to understand as a statement of overt racism. And, perplexingly to her, its overt racism that's evidently being given sanction at the highest levels of our society.

This is absolutely true and needs to more vocally and explicitly acknowledged. As explanatory variables go, financial means is by far the most significant determinant of a wide variety of important life outcomes.

However, it is also beyond question that there is at least some marginal disenfranchisement experienced by certain people purely on the basis of their appearance. Do I think it's as potent a handicap as being poor? Hell no. Do I think it's as potent a factor as many people who live in San Francisco would have you believe? Definitely not. But we absolutely do need to acknowledge that it's a nonzero consideration in socioeconomic stature.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#168

Post by leereeves »

rebelos wrote: post #167
rayiner wrote: post #49

I first heard this notion of trying to "be less white" in the context of Robin DiAngelo: https://www.aei.org/op-eds/anti-racist-education-is-anything... . I found it alarming, but people assured me she was just a crackpot. To see such rhetoric become normalized enough to be presented in training materials for a Fortune 500 company is truly disturbing.[1] Rhetoric like this is deeply problematic, especially for mixed-…

> To her, "white privilege" is an academic abstraction. She grew up in real poverty and never went to college. By contrast, "be less white" is quite easy to understand as a statement of overt racism. And, perplexingly to her, its overt racism that's evidently being given sanction at the highest levels of our society. This is absolutely true and needs to more vocally and explicitly acknowledged. As explanatory variabl…

> it is also beyond question that there is at least some marginal disenfranchisement experienced by certain people purely on the basis of their appearance

Appearance, apart from race, is certainly a significant source of privilege for some and discrimination for others.

But I imagine you meant race, and I don't think that is beyond question. I find it hard to believe that race remains a significant obstacle in a country where university admissions offices give extra points based on race, most major companies preferentially recruit non-whites, and the current President publicly declared that being black was the first criterion for a Vice-Presidential candidate.

However, black people remain far more likely to be born in families and communities with limited financial resources, and that naturally perpetuates racial disparities. They are, on average, more likely to attend poor schools, more likely to encounter violence in their communities, and less likely to receive help from their families. These are fundamentally economic issues that affect people of all races.

Correcting the economic disparities for everyone would also solve many of the racial issues, while not dividing the country into poor people who receive help and other poor people who do not, in the way recent race based policies clearly have.

Re: Coca-Cola says 'Be Less White' learning plan was about workplace inclusion

#169

Post by rayiner »

sangnoir wrote: post #120
alea_iacta_est wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what, you're admitting it's not a race issue but an education issue?

That depends - are you willing to admit that the education issue is a race issue? Race, income and school quality are highly correlated in the US: poor neighborhood = poor education. The fact that immigrants (who were not poor in the old country - immigration is expensive) bypass low-quality education doesn't mean it's not a race issue, it just means they are not useful as a control group. Ruby Bridges, the first bla…

The data doesn’t fit that theory. Latino immigrants, for example, have historically had low levels of education prior to immigration. But for decades the trend has been for Latino incomes to converge with white incomes over a few generations. During that same time, incomes for Black people and native Americans have not converged at all.

It’s also not just a parental income thing. Whites in the bottom 20% of the income spectrum have much double the income mobility of Black people in the bottom 20%. The structural barriers to Black mobility go well beyond income: https://academic.oup.com/qje/article/135/2/711/5687353

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