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The unusual ways Western parents raise children

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Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#371

Post by bihla »

NovaJehovah wrote: post #338
ramblerman wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't rationalize it with clichés like "love is all that matters" Counter data point. My wife is Argentinian. I'd say the values you see in her family primarily is "love does come first" and strict boundaries on kids. E.g. the adults are talking, go away. When I compare that to my own nieces and nephews, they have little boundaries, are quite lethargic and can be quite arrogant. Yet their parents would all describe…

I'm not trying to say there's one right way to do things. But there are a lot of plainly wrong ways. If your parenting philosophy is not based on any research or learning about what's best for your child, but instead on what's easiest and most convenient for you , then you're probably doing it wrong. That doesn't mean you can't set boundaries for kids who are old enough to understand them. I think the way we discard…

So much of the "research" is not research at all. It's no surprise to see anti-vaccine sentiment run strong among Grace Manning-Devlin types.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#372

Post by astura »

jjav wrote: post #337
munificent wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> give them as many time with you as possible. Children in the West today already spend more time with parents than at any point in the past: https://news.uci.edu/2016/09/28/todays-parents-spend-more-ti... Quality time with parents is important, of course, but we have become so focused on parental time that children are sacrificing solo time where they learn independence and initiative, and peer time where they learn…

> Children in the West today already spend more time with parents than at any point in the past That's not what the article says. It compares to just 50 years ago, which is well into the industrialized world of two working parents in the office away from home. Just a bit farther back, like with my grandparents era, kids grew up on the family farm, with their parents 24x7, learning by example from them.

How much of that "24x7" time was actually time spent together? When I was growing up kids and adults barely interacted with each other, most of the time kid(s) would be in one area of the house (or outside) doing their own thing and adult(s) would be somewhere else doing their own thing. This wasn't just my house either, it was normal.

Nowadays it's totally the opposite (and it's completely insane)

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#373

Post by krapht »

alistairSH wrote: post #350
carabiner wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My coworker did this with her son. She was spread thin with afterschool programs, sports, projects and so on. Well, the kid got into Caltech. Where he'll probably meet amazing people and receive an excellent education. So maybe it worked? How many YC founders had this overbooked childhood? I'd guess over 70%.

But did the overbooked childhood enable that, or was the kid destined for a top-notch uni regardless? The students gaining admissions to top unis are largely self-motivated, extremely smart, and would have chosen high-quality activities on their own. Looking back at my own childhood, I chose my sports, music, and other activities. My parents enabled them, but never forced me into them. Would forcing me to play an add…

I have the same experience; I think what school you get to attend is just the happy byproduct arising from your internal combination of intelligence, self-motivation, and emotional resilience (mostly! I am speaking in generalities).

I remember reading a study about this exact topic and it turns out name brand has little to do with career success in meritocratic career paths - i.e., upper-middle white collar professionals such as engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc.

I guess my conclusion is to be aware of your child's personality. If they aspire to be an engineer, they could probably go anywhere, even gasp Virginia Tech and do fine. However if they aspire to be a politician, then they'd probably be best served to attend the highest grade institution they can so they can be socialized into that in-group.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#374

Post by nsxwolf »

mucholove wrote: post #261
gdubs wrote: post #171

One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it. We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.…

What method of sleep training did you use? This article lists 6! https://www.todaysparent.com/baby/baby-sleep/most-popular-sl...

An informal application of #1, the Ferber method. On 4 kids. Worked great. Or seemed to, anyway. You can't know if anything actually works or if the baby just decided to start sleeping on his or her own.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#375

Post by NovaJehovah »

spamizbad wrote: post #288
gdubs wrote: post #171

One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it. We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.…

Most of the hunter-gatherer parenting practices that get pushed on certain parenting blogs are pseudo-scientific and shouldn't be adopted. And some of claims that a baby crying is dumping enough cortisol into their bodies it will permanently damage their brains is NOT supported by science. What does have a strong scientific basis: the importance of sleep hygiene. Children don't need perfection or goofy hunter-gathere…

"And some of claims that a baby crying is dumping enough cortisol into their bodies it will permanently damage their brains is NOT supported by science."

This is misleading. You're correct that there is not conclusive scientific evidence either way, but there are decent studies that support the cortisol theory. Not necessarily that it will "damage their brains", but that cortisol levels spike during sleep training and remain elevated even after the baby learns to stop crying at night. We know that, in general, elevated cortisol levels are bad for humans.

The studies that claim to support sleep training are all terrible, unless there are new ones I haven't seen. The most-cited ones use self-reports from the parents themselves to measure "wellbeing" of the infant, which is plainly ridiculous.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#376

Post by decafninja »

phabora wrote: post #363
decafninja wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the biggest ways I see is the idea of when to move out of your parents' household. At least in American society, it's considered imperative to move out ASAP - when leaving for college, or at the latest, upon graduating. Even if it means dumping a huge portion of your paycheck into rent for place barely 15 minutes from your parents' home. In other societies it's more common to live with your parents well into a…

That’s not the case where I live in the small non-American West. We’ve all seen the American TV show/films where some Mega Loser has failed to move out the year they become eighteen and graduated the year they become twenty-two. Maybe it comes off as a trope for non-Americans.

In America, if you don't move out ASAP, you are considered a failure, a loser, a (wo)man-child, etc.

In other countries (or even cultural enclaves in the US), it's considered perfectly normal and acceptable. You'll see highly paid professionals like medical doctors, hedge fund managers or SWEs making huge salaries living with their parents.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#377

Post by steve_adams_86 »

zekrioca wrote: post #124
meowster wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but got some flack from people How do they even know you're co-sleeping in the first place?

The person probably shared private parenting habits and received such criticism..

Of course I shared private parenting habits - parents often discuss various approaches to problems or daily life. I didn't share without being prompted, though. I keep most private things to myself in person.

If sleeping came up and I mentioned co-sleeping, people were often critical. They think it's bad for the kid, dangerous, unnecessary, what have you.

I don't mind the criticism; I think it's helpful to know how people feel and reflect on my own decisions. People are remarkably harsh with their criticisms when it comes to parenting sometimes, but I think this reflects how uncertain, even insecure and anxious people feel about the decisions we need to make as parents. It's fine.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#378

Post by alistairSH »

rsync wrote: post #249
alistairSH wrote: post #29

Of all the "weird" things we do as parents in euro/anglo nations, sleeping arrangements seems nowhere near the top. IMO, the top "offender" is over-scheduling kid's activities. So many kids in my area have their days booked solid with sports, academic tutoring, music lessons. Approaching zero free time to enjoy being a kid. Edit - and this isn't really a western thing, "Tiger Mom" and similar probably pre-dates this…

"IMO, the top "offender" is over-scheduling kid's activities. So many kids in my area have their days booked solid with sports, academic tutoring, music lessons. Approaching zero free time to enjoy being a kid." It's a weird and tricky balance that one has to strike, in the US, in 2021 ... On the one hand, I feel strongly that kids should have free time and energy to explore and experiment and I am reinforced daily i…

Yeah, totally agree on sports. But, that's part of the problem - kids specializing in a single sport before high school? That's bonkers to m.

When I was in school, very few kids specialized, even through high school. The top football players were also the best wrestlers or basketball players, and most also played baseball or track or lacrosse. Few of them did school basketball and then AAU the remainder of the year.

My son stuck to club/rec basketball (instead of the school team) and volleyball (school team, but mens volleyball prior to high school isn't really a thing in DC).

And, like you said, there's always cycling, martial arms, or track/field (typically takes all interested).

I also agree with keeping kids active/engaged. But, to me, that means supporting them as they pick their own activities, not scheduling every second of their non-school time.

Edit - many of the kids specializing before high school are pretty obviously NOT destined for scholarship athletics. There's really no point to it, IMO. I coached football and basketball for much of my son's youth. Of all the kids I coached, 1 went on to NCAA D1 sports (and that was to W&M, where he still had to meet stringent academic standards).

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#379

Post by johncessna »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #322
bluGill wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Odds are good the couple you mention are in fact negative net worth, or close to it. They don't own the car. Every time their house goes up in value they refinance and take the cash out to pay for the vacation. Generally those with a significant net worth live more modest lives - older cars (they might buy new, but that is because they know if they do the maintenance it will last for 15-20 years). The house might be…

In the US, a doctor/lawyer dual income couple should be earning at least $300k, if not $500k+ per year. Source: https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2020-compensation-overvie... Even with $600k to $800k ($4k to $6k per month loan payments) of student loans, they should be able to pull off a decent lifestyle and be positive net worth by their mid 40s.

Income doesn't equate to wealth. You have to look at the other side of the equation, outgo, to determine what someone's net worth is.

In addition to student loans, there's the house payment. People tend to buy a house based on what they can be approved for, not based off of a budget number they developed before talking to a bank. A 300k salary will get you pre-approved for a a lot of house in the US. Docs and Lawyers also fall into the trap of buying practices, so that's another factor.

The biggest factor you're missing in your assumption, though, is that personal finance problems are largely behavioral. There's a parallel with personal health. The difference is that people know more about how to lose weight and be healthy - and still don't do it - then people who actually know how to make good financial decisions. Even those who know they shouldn't buy things they can't afford, routinely do so for whatever reason they have been told or have invented.

For what it's worth, the study by Ramsey Solutions says that the top 5 careers for becoming a millionaire are engineers, teachers, CPAs, attorneys, and management. While some of those are vague and capture a large range of professions, Docs are conspicuously missing.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#380

Post by a2tech »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #313
eurusdac wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, my advice to any new parent would be to listen carefully to advice about how not to drown your child while bathing them, and how to make sure they're not suffocated by their bedding. Both real issues where some simple practices avoid the small risk of an absolutely catastrophic outcome. Then take all other advice with a pinch of salt. Just follow your best instincts and do what seems right. Your child will b…

For myself, the risk SIDS didn't even enter my calculus. (I confess I am a little skeptical that it exists at all.) Regardless, I perceived the emotional bonding with the mother & father to far outweigh anything else and so we shared our bed with our children until they were perhaps 1 year old or so. And even after, they moved into their own small bed just a foot from ours in the same bedroom for another year or so.…

I very much believe SIDS is a real thing. I also think that many cases of SIDS are babies being smothered by soft cloth that bunches up and constricts their breathing and by accidentally smothered by their parents while they're deeply asleep. When kids are small I think co-sleeping is a great thing (where you have a small basinet or something similar next to your bed where you can reach out and touch your baby but they're safe from accidental crushing/smothering.
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