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The unusual ways Western parents raise children

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Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#341
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drop the kids of at school/daycare/grandparents - come back home :).

>Drop the kids of at school/daycare So, while we're both working? >grandparents One is on the other side of the country, the other is 2 hours away. So... sex three days a year?

Well fortunately toddlers are natural libido killers - it is probably an additional protection mechanism along with the hormones controlling lactation to prevent you from becoming parents again so soon :).

You are just so tired the first few months catching up on sleep.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, my advice to any new parent would be to listen carefully to advice about how not to drown your child while bathing them, and how to make sure they're not suffocated by their bedding. Both real issues where some simple practices avoid the small risk of an absolutely catastrophic outcome. Then take all other advice with a pinch of salt. Just follow your best instincts and do what seems right. Your child will b…

Hey, wait, what is the advice to avoid drowning, other than not leaving them alone? Is there some subtle hazard I’m unaware of?

Not really, it's just the simple advice not to let go of them or leave them is correct, common sense and important in that case.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#343

I'm amazed that corporal punishment in schools is still legal throughout much of the US [0]. Perhaps it's mostly not used. I'm not sure because I went to school in New Jersey where it's outlawed even in private schools. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_...

Hmmm - Sorry for bringing this up, HN.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#344
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there is an obesity problem (although I am not an American), but I am not so sure that demonizing french fries, Chicken McNuggets and hot chocolate from age 4 will have the desired effect. E, to answer the question below: because my personal experience from being a child and caring for a child is that anything that is demonized by the parents becomes extremely attractive.

Why do you think that?

My anecdotal experience is the same as well. Stingy parents have led to a lot of spending from kid as they become young adults with moeny for the first time.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, my advice to any new parent would be to listen carefully to advice about how not to drown your child while bathing them, and how to make sure they're not suffocated by their bedding. Both real issues where some simple practices avoid the small risk of an absolutely catastrophic outcome. Then take all other advice with a pinch of salt. Just follow your best instincts and do what seems right. Your child will b…

For myself, the risk SIDS didn't even enter my calculus. (I confess I am a little skeptical that it exists at all.) Regardless, I perceived the emotional bonding with the mother & father to far outweigh anything else and so we shared our bed with our children until they were perhaps 1 year old or so. And even after, they moved into their own small bed just a foot from ours in the same bedroom for another year or so.…

I think SIDS is a real thing and there is clear evidence that not using pillows or excessive blankets in cribs has reduced deaths.

I think sleeping with or not with your kid, is a much more complicated question and probably one where your instinct is right. After all, with a baby in the bed you can't help but be aware of its comfort, needs and amount of movement.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am genuinely surprised that this part of the equation is not more troubling to more parents. Yes, the toy is is part of the draw. The question is whether this is a good thing and/or a good habit. I think it is not.

I think that depends more on the parent than it does the restaurant. It is possible to fit fast food in to a healthy diet, just like it's also possible to eat fruits and vegetables in an unhealthy way[0]. A weekly treat sounds squarely within the realm of moderation to me... that's what, 5% of a weekly diet? 0: https://www.news-press.com/story/news/crime/2019/11/12/malno...

It is a reasonable argument assuming it is true for the rest of the diet. Thank you for that. I am still not entirely convinced, but I all of a sudden I feel a little less adamant in my position.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#347
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the U.S. I personally know a non-trivial number of women who have gone through absolutely intense (real, diagnosed) anxiety and depression because of having to feed formula to their child instead of breast milk. If you ever get to peek into these "mommy groups" on social media or in person, you can see how much shaming goes on in there. And the breast milk one is one of the biggest issues people get shamed for…

Well good advice in general, even though the way you phrase your comment makes it look like you think breast feeding is no better than the formulas. I am a medical student and we have been told at uni from professors (paediatricians) that breast feeding _is_ better than formulas I think with regards to asthma or some other allergic stuff. There are reasons that mothers should not or cannot breastfeed and it's not the…

I do not claim that breast feeding is no better than formula. However, I am currently convinced that there is not yet sufficient evidence that breast feeding a child will likely lead to significantly better long-term outcomes than feeding formula.

I'm a scientist. Not a medical scientist, but a hard science non-the-less. MDs are not (usually) scientists. They go off of what they believe the scientists are saying. But it's a game of telephone and you're now the fourth in the game (data -> researcher -> MD that is your teacher -> you).

The studies I've seen (and I'm NOT an expert in the field or in the techniques used for these kinds of longitudinal, observational, social studies), mostly show very minor differences in long term outcomes. Honestly, the long term difference is probably much smaller than many other lifestyle choices you could make.

Some sibling studies apparently have shown no significant difference in outcomes. Some try to control for socioeconomic status (how many people ever ask how they control for these things?) or various other factors, but these controls are not perfect. Perhaps most women want to breast feed, but some subset have underlying health conditions tied to not producing milk. Maybe that same underlying condition is present in their children, which causes worse outcomes and NOT the lack of breast milk per se. None of these studies can even account for stuff like that because most of them are self-reports and because underlying health conditions may never even be detected.

It's very hard to do good science on humans.

> And really the weight of proof rests on the baby formulas to prove that they're OK.

I agree with that. I do think the proof is there, though. We've had at least of couple of generations of people who have grown up on formula and the studies that compare outcomes never show that formula fed babies grow into significantly worse-off adults.

> Even common sense suggests breast feeding is better, it's been the way people have been growing up for millenia all around the world.

One should never ever appeal to common sense when discussing something about science. Surely you remember that in Aristotle's time, even he considered it to be basically common sense that heavier objects would fall to Earth faster than light objects, right? Human brains are stupid. Common sense means nothing. It might mean less than nothing.

And the sentiment of your statement is also debunked by a single contradictory example. There are many cases in which science/technology has done better for us than nature. Our own immune systems fall flat when presented with many illnesses until we introduce vaccines and medicine. It's entirely conceivable for use to create something that is even better for our bodies than nature has to offer. Nature, after all, is guided only by the selective pressure for us to barely make it to be old enough to procreate. That's all nature has optimized us for, at the end of the day.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These days, there aren't many kids who only do Scouting...it's an over-scheduling comorbidity. For kids who resist over-scheduling, scouting seems to be one of the first things to go...because den and pack meetings are by and for adults, they never make it to a troop. Or to put it another way, teenage apathy prevalence is probably pre-teen survivor bias.

I wonder what the rate of dropping out during Cub Scouts is vs Scouts BSA, vs how many don't cross over from Cubs to Scouts. The crossover happens around age 11, so I would imagine most of the dropouts happen later.

Anecdotal observation from my child's experience is nearly everyone who dropped out dropped out as a cub scout. That was a very large fraction. Those who crossed over are typically Eagle Scouts. But for one of those kids, they were all highly scheduled. But for a different one, they were each complying with parental wishes.

My child was over Cub Scouts by Bears.

But more than a decade later, my grown-ass child hangs out with several of the Eagles. They are close friends.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#349

> Kuroda [...] didn’t find any correlation between the amount of time babies were carried and the amount they cried. "I couldn’t agree with that," she says. > Her research found that carrying a baby reduced [...] how much they cried. ...what?

This is an example of how you can change the meaning completely by dropping the right words.

The part that you quoted as “Kuroda [...] didn’t find any correlation” is actually “Kuroda […] saw that previous research […] didn’t find any correlation” (and that's what she couldn't agree with), specifically:

> Kuroda began looking into the physiological effects of carrying infants when she saw that previous research, which used parental diaries rather than real-time physiological measurements, didn’t find any correlation between the amount of time babies were carried and the amount they cried. "I couldn’t agree with that," she says. Her research found that carrying a baby reduced their heart rate and movement as well as how much they cried.

and so on.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#350

Of all the "weird" things we do as parents in euro/anglo nations, sleeping arrangements seems nowhere near the top. IMO, the top "offender" is over-scheduling kid's activities. So many kids in my area have their days booked solid with sports, academic tutoring, music lessons. Approaching zero free time to enjoy being a kid. Edit - and this isn't really a western thing, "Tiger Mom" and similar probably pre-dates this…

My coworker did this with her son. She was spread thin with afterschool programs, sports, projects and so on. Well, the kid got into Caltech. Where he'll probably meet amazing people and receive an excellent education. So maybe it worked? How many YC founders had this overbooked childhood? I'd guess over 70%.

But did the overbooked childhood enable that, or was the kid destined for a top-notch uni regardless?

The students gaining admissions to top unis are largely self-motivated, extremely smart, and would have chosen high-quality activities on their own.

Looking back at my own childhood, I chose my sports, music, and other activities. My parents enabled them, but never forced me into them. Would forcing me to play an additional sport, or forcing me to attend after-school tutoring made the difference between UVA and Harvard? I doubt it. And what did attending UVA instead of Harvard cost me? Hard to say for sure, but I'm inclined to say "not much" as I'm happily upper-middle-class as it is.

And considering my high school peers who did attend Ivies and similar, most of them either smarter or harder working than me.

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