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The unusual ways Western parents raise children

bbc.com

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Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#261

Post by mucholove »

gdubs wrote: post #171

One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it. We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.…

What method of sleep training did you use?

This article lists 6! https://www.todaysparent.com/baby/baby-sleep/most-popular-sl...

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#262

Post by Grustaf »

petertodd wrote: post #236
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4781366/ Almost every study on breastfeeding will have a disclaimer like the one in this meta-analysis (or ought to if it doesn't). "Because almost all the data in this review were gathered from observational studies, one should not infer causality based on these findings. Also, there is a wide range of quality of the body of evidence across different health outcomes." I d…

Also "Formula-fed children have about twice the risk of vomiting or diarrhea during their first year." Yes, that's bad. But it's not that bad. Try your best at breastfeeding, and if it doesn't work out, so be it. Better to focus your energy in being a good parent in other ways that you can excel at than dwelling on what isn't working for you.

That was more an example of the SIZE of some of these correlations, rather than how bad diarrhea is. The effect is huge. Breastfeeding is more effective than a lot of medicines.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#263

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

Grustaf wrote: post #258
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only difference is that your position is in contravention of the evidence, whereas mine is backed by it. Breastfeeding pain is something the XXX vast majority XXX (ed: another commenter pointed out that only about 30% of women experience ongoing pain during breastfeeding -- so good for those who don't, but this is still a significant problem for many many women) of breastfeeding women experience. Some women are a…

What evidence would that be?

The intro to the study I cited above, as well as literally any other research you might care to look up on the subject. The phenomenon of breastfeeding pain is well documented. Feel free to cite a study showing breastfeeding pain is rare if you disagree.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#264

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

rayiner wrote: post #253
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally do not subscribe to the idea that giving a child ( in this case -- a 4 year old ) espresso is acceptable. To answer your argument about Bangladesh food. Assuming McD is not worse ( I have no real data to say either way ),I am not sure it is a good argument either. You, typically, want your kids to do better so if McD is that upgrade, then I really cannot fault you for this. We all approach this with reso…

Are you suggesting that whatever weird food your kids eat is an "upgrade" compared to the normal diet of Bangladeshis?

No. As previously mentioned, I don't know enough about traditional foods there to make a judgment one way on the other. I am actually arguing that what my kids eat is an "upgrade" over McD and I assumed that if you think McD is no worse than diet of Bangladeshis then it is either the same or better since, possibly wrongly, I assume that parents universally want to improve their kids life.

Just to make more interesting. In the old country, the diet is heavy in fats of all kinds ( partially due to history of the location and, well, cold weather ). Despite its flaws, I would argue its still better than McD on most days.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#265

Post by Kluny »

kkwteh wrote: post #47

From the perspective of the Lindy principle it is weird. I have an eighteen-month old child and have been reading a lot about child rearing since my wife got pregnant. It’s taboo to say this, and I’m sorry if this offends anyone, but I suspect that a lack of adult attention in the first three years of life is a principal factor in the rising autism rates we’re seeing in modern economies. This would explain why autism…

> This would explain why autism seems to “cluster” in upper class homes, where the parents work nonstop.

Are you under the impression that people lower income households work less? If anything, I'd expect the opposite to be true.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#266

Post by Grustaf »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #223
Grustaf wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They trot out headlines from questionable studies from totally different living environments in the world that indicate some 3 IQ point increase in kids that were breastfed and then they act like it's proof that formula feeding is child abuse. Breastfeeding, apart from being cheap, convenient and natural, has been shown to have numerous benefits, not just to intelligence but overall health, even for the mother. The…

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4781366/ Almost every study on breastfeeding will have a disclaimer like the one in this meta-analysis (or ought to if it doesn't). "Because almost all the data in this review were gathered from observational studies, one should not infer causality based on these findings. Also, there is a wide range of quality of the body of evidence across different health outcomes." I d…

The same is of course true for almost any long-term factor, yet most people would accept that e.g. getting an education boosts your earnings even without a randomized double blind study.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#267

Post by crazy1van »

Grustaf wrote: post #220
ragnese wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the U.S. I personally know a non-trivial number of women who have gone through absolutely intense (real, diagnosed) anxiety and depression because of having to feed formula to their child instead of breast milk. If you ever get to peek into these "mommy groups" on social media or in person, you can see how much shaming goes on in there. And the breast milk one is one of the biggest issues people get shamed for…

> They trot out headlines from questionable studies from totally different living environments in the world that indicate some 3 IQ point increase in kids that were breastfed and then they act like it's proof that formula feeding is child abuse. Breastfeeding, apart from being cheap, convenient and natural, has been shown to have numerous benefits, not just to intelligence but overall health, even for the mother. The…

Its very difficult to control for all factors when comparing breast-fed to bottle-fed babies. In 2014, a study [0] was published at Ohio State that compared babies over a long period. When looking at only sibling-pairs (babies in the same family where one was breastfed and one was bottle-fed), the differences in outcome disappeared.

Quote from the link:

"As expected, the analyses of the samples of adults and their children across families suggested that breast-feeding resulted in better outcomes than bottle-feeding in a number of measures: BMI, hyperactivity, math skills, reading recognition, vocabulary word identification, digit recollection, scholastic competence and obesity.

When the sample was restricted to siblings who were differently fed within the same families, however, scores reflecting breast-feeding’s positive effects on 10 of the 11 indicators of child health and well-being were closer to zero and not statistically significant – meaning any differences could have occurred by chance alone.

The outlying outcome in this study was asthma; in all samples, children who were breast-fed were at higher risk for asthma, which could relate to data generated by self-reports instead of actual diagnoses."

[0]: https://news.osu.edu/breast-feeding-benefits-appear-to-be-ov...

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#268

Post by NLips »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #233
Grustaf wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My children, like most middle-class children in Sweden, are breastfed. So I guess I'm about as qualified as you to talk about it.

The only difference is that your position is in contravention of the evidence, whereas mine is backed by it. Breastfeeding pain is something the XXX vast majority XXX (ed: another commenter pointed out that only about 30% of women experience ongoing pain during breastfeeding -- so good for those who don't, but this is still a significant problem for many many women) of breastfeeding women experience. Some women are a…

From the study:

“ Although 90% of women report acute breast and nipple pain during the first week of breastfeeding initiation”

“ 30% of women who continue to breastfeed at 2 weeks after birth report persistent breast and nipple pain”

That’s certainly quite different from the suggestion that it’s a year of suffering in the normal case.

Breast feed if you want to, and quit when you want, without worrying about what other people think.

We took a few weeks with child one for mother’s nipples to handle the pain. The biggest issue was psychological for the first 2ish weeks, as we’d been told by some midwives that it will not hurt if you’re latching correctly. Visiting a breastfeeding specialist (for free) at 2ish weeks who told us sometimes the pain is unavoidable but normally goes in 4 to 8 weeks made a huge difference. Weaned completely at 9 months.

With child number 2, basically no pain. Weaned completely at 2 years. Mother is very glad she breastfed both, and was ready to stop when the children were.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#269

Post by war1025 »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #42

I wonder how much is caused by having both parents working. Kids were raised differently 50-70 years ago when one salary was enough for a family.

> when one salary was enough for a family.

One salary is still "enough" for many of the definitions of "enough" from back then.

Hell, even now my wife stays home and I feel like we live like kings.

Making enough money is important, but past a certain fairly modest income, avoiding stupid lifestyle expenses is more important.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#270

Post by tabtab »

ragnese wrote: post #151
dlisboa wrote: post #87

Outside of neglect and abuse, is there really a WRONG way of raising a child? You see multiple different styles in different cultures. Some cultures where bed-sharing and baby-carrying is common also beat their kids and use other forms of punishment for disobedience. Wouldn't that be much "weirder"? It seems in Europe breastfeeding rates are really low and people use prams, but they might not beat the child as much (…

I'm in the U.S. I personally know a non-trivial number of women who have gone through absolutely intense (real, diagnosed) anxiety and depression because of having to feed formula to their child instead of breast milk. If you ever get to peek into these "mommy groups" on social media or in person, you can see how much shaming goes on in there. And the breast milk one is one of the biggest issues people get shamed for…

Breast feeding can be difficult for many reasons. In traditional societies people with experience would take the time to coach a new mother. Sometimes a baby is slow to get the hang of it and will actually lose weight for a while before figuring it out. Allowing your newborn child to lose weight goes against mothering instincts, and without a supporting coach is really hard to accept. And if you "cheat" via bottle, the child will get spoiled and only take the bottle. Breast infections and soreness are also common. Coaching helps here also.

A compromise is to purchase human breast milk, perhaps mix it 50/50 with formula if your budget is tight. Still, you are often viewed as a failure for doing such.

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