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Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

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Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#291

Post by T-A »

newacct583 wrote: post #95
gfodor wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not going to fully defend the OP but the problem is things like the USSR were, in retrospect, unsustainable. The CCP, on the other hand, may have created just the right blend between totalitarianism, communism, and capitalism that is both sustainable and has global reach. We should not want to end up all-consumed by this form of government given how oppressive it is, and only time will tell just how all-consuming it…

Meh. No one thought the USSR was "unsustainable" in the 80's when they were an evil empire. And within the decade they were gone. Nazi Germany didn't look "unsustainable" either, until they lost. All great powers look unbeatable during their ascendance and weak in retrospect. Could things get worse? Sure. But all I'm saying is that things have already been much, much, much worse. And we came out OK.

> Meh. No one thought the USSR was "unsustainable" in the 80's when they were an evil empire.

Actually, both the guy who coined that phrase and others did:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2011/07/predicting-soviet-col...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_of_the_collapse_of...

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#292

Post by hiq »

ncann wrote: post #144
yange wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Chinese. Many languages and expressions in this thread not only detests me but also represent the very opposite of western critical thinking. I appreciate the western style of logical thinking. You are being taught in schools how to tell the truth and bust lies, to criticize, to doubt, to ask questions no one dares to ask. You are taught definitions of fallacies, the art of debate, the wisdom of introspection. I…

> But have you ever doubt that why all stories about China are negative This struck a chord with me. I think most people who read news regularly can agree that nearly 100% of the news about China these days are negative, and never anything positive. We can all wonder why that is.

> I think most people who read news regularly can agree that nearly 100% of the news about China these days are negative, and never anything positive.

That's only relevant if you compare it to other topics and there's a discrepancy. There's very little positive content in the political news I read, even when it's about Western countries. If something works or is going well it's almost not news by definition, at least it's less likely to appear on the front page.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#293

Post by HappyDreamer »

koheripbal wrote: post #234
yumraj wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the whole point - Muslim countries care about their self-interest over the interest of some muslims in Xinjiang. Some care about selling oil, some about economy and so on..

Why should they care more or less than the rest of us?

Or phrased differently,

Why should [different religion countries] care less?

(I cannot imagine that there's any good answer to that question)

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#294

Post by aaron695 »

hh3k0 wrote: post #284
aaron695 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are denying Pol Pot killing 1 million Cambodians was "genocide". You are correct, it wasn't a legal pig. That is why the trials had to loophole it around killing the Cham and other minorities. Points for being technical. As I said even by your legal definition the Chinese are not committing genocide against the Uyghurs. The report FYI, which I'm not clear why we care what the lawyers at Essex Court Chambers readi…

> You are denying Pol Pot killing 1 million Cambodians was "genocide". No. > As I said even by your legal definition the Chinese are not committing genocide against the Uyghurs. Counterpoint: They absolutely are. https://www.npr.org/2020/07/04/887239225/china-suppression-o...

Good link, Adrian Zenz is not big on the 'gays' and stuff, off topic but -

Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation - Adrian Zenz - https://www.amazon.com.au/Worthy-Escape-Believers-Raptured-T...

Although it must suck having a Chinese army dragging out info on who their opponents are, I personally are critical of someone who looks at Christian documents to pin down technical data on the Rapture. I don't care if someone doesn't personally approve of homosexuals or believes in the Rapture, but when they publish on it, I use that to judge their other work. And this is were we differ, your 'good' sources are simply not my 'good' sources. The first thing on Wiki or Goggle is not a source to me.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#296

Post by Bakary »

_-david-_ wrote: post #267
Bakary wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The former. The proposition is a hard sell on a purely logical basis ("if you don't freedom correctly, we'll freedom you ") but also in its broader context. Western nations have made great innovations in empire building and genocide from the Opium Wars to the camps, have destabilized a large number of governments, created the threat of nuclear annihilation, then lecture other nations after only a few decades of liber…

I consider any genocide, opium wars, etc to not be western values. While the west did do those things I do not think they are in line with the values I think should be wide spread. I think an apt comparison would be members of the military being charged with conduct unbecoming. Just because a member of the military does something bad doesn't mean that those are the values of the military. Just because the west has do…

Take the perspective of your average Chinese household. You have a century and a half of absolutely horrific events one after the other. The nation itself is parceled, invaded, and humiliated in various ways. Then after generations of poverty and misery the living standards don't just rise, but skyrocket upwards to the point where someone born after 1980 lives in a different world. Today, there are multiple opportunities to have a better life even for people in the poorest regions, where there previously was nothing. It is quite literally the single largest increase in living standards in history. If a person from that Chinese household told you that China is deeply flawed and doesn't always do the right thing, but that there are ideals worth spreading, what would you say to them?

Why is authoritarianism the defining trait of that civ, but somehow the centuries of Western colonization and subjugation aren't a defining trait of Western values? If the majority of the activity, funding and development of a military is to intervene in order to maintain economic and geopolitical interests, isn't that a better way to define it than vague abstract values like a soldier's code or "becoming conduct"? Does it matter that soldiers have a nice story to tell themselves when the end aggregate result of their participation is much grittier?

More broadly, aren't positive values the result of economic and political strength? Living standards are dropping and inequality is rising in the US, and the result was a semi-authoritarian and largely unqualified cabinet. So are Western values actually part of the Western character or a consequence of successful empire building and good economic conditions?

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#297

Post by unityByFreedom »

cambalache wrote: post #256
unityByFreedom wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CPJ, based in New York. Such an organization would never be allowed to exist in China. It is the likes of the CCP & Trump who would paint the world as black and white, i.e. you're either with me or against me. The rest of us acknowledge that press freedoms enable a spectrum of viewpoints.

But you just said in the previous comment than A) Journalists were not jailed in the west. B) Freedom of the press was a clear cut issue. I would love to see how your brain works.

Again, the organization you quoted would never be allowed to exist in China. Journalists are sometimes jailed, like any other person, they do not get exemption from breaking the law. They have significantly more latitude outside authoritarian countries.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#298

Post by xwolfi »

vixen99 wrote: post #193
xwolfi wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be blunt, I was raised in a european democracy and live in China, I don't think democracy works anymore lol Trump is a big component, but the Brexit or what they do in Hungary, pff it's just disheartening. I don't think China will forever sustain that large a monitoring, it's just inefficient the closer they get from an intellectual super power, but I have 0 respect for the US, or their "freedom of being an idio…

What is it that you don't understand about democracy? A referendum was held in the UK in 2016. It was brought about by a Prime Minister who, along with a huge majority of the establishment including the BBC, thought that the result was a foregone conclusion. For sure, they said - most folk will vote to stay in the EU. But the voters decided otherwise. We voted `leave`. Abiding by that decision shows that democracy do…

But that I understand, the problem in democracy is that you can take bad decision that you glorify because it's made by the people.

It's fine, people can make collective mistakes, but I think we ignore several facts during a referendum like that: - People misunderstand the question - People understand the question but vote to answer another one - People are divided in groups with very different agenda that sometimes are shorterm good for a majority and long term bad for a minority (the elders might vote against the interest of the youth, then die leaving them with the mess)

I vote, and enjoy it, but I also recognize I'm as big an idiot as anyone else, and I don't think this worked in the Brexit instance. The PM proposed the vote for the wrong reason, people voted at a time they were not thinking of the Union long term, people voted massively divided (cities vs country side, England vs the others, old vs young), so what answer did they provide exactly ? That "the people want rid of the EU" or that "British society is so divided it barely even exists" ?

I guess at least in a democracy, mistakes can be reversed, but we seem to do so many I wonder if it's not better here where at least we stick to one single side and pursue it to the end rather than girouette around (in the EU, but with not everything, then out, then surely in again because out was stupid, etc).

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#299

Post by xwolfi »

woah wrote: post #127
xwolfi wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Hong Kong and that's exactly how I talk with people abroad totally panicking over the situation here. It's... not THAT bad. Certainly not as bad as portrayed, sometimes, west of the world. Not saying I have any clue about Xinjiang or that the CCP is positive for the country, but I feel uneasy everyone switched from prisoner camps to genocide - it seems to distract away from the actual issue to move into bor…

Didn’t the situation in Hong Kong escalate from people being concerned about the extradition thing to the Chinese government now suspending elections?

Not really, it escalated towards the police being violent then died with a poof when teenagers realized they fucked us all.

The Chinese gov doesn't care and doesn't want to care, they are being bamboozled by the true winners of the situation: the DAB party using the communist paranoia to consolidate their local power acting as good little patriots (when every law they passed is anti-communist, really, and pro-status quo).

So the DAB suspended the legislative election after they lost the district one, for one year. They can act like that with the blame being directed at China by constantly looking the other way when asked to give an opinion about China and acting as if they were under order. But it serves 0 chinese interest, it makes the entire population hate China and China hate the population, with the DAB cementing itself into the only barrier still there before the army intervenes.

It's so obvious yet so missed by everyone that it's painful to watch. I hope there's a masterplan in Beijing, but I doubt they even understand what people think in Beijing, let alone in Hong Kong, so ...

And the DAB represents a large class of the population, too: the elders, the rent-owners, the large corporations, the traditional post-colonial Hong Kong. That's the people you see on the sideline shaking their head and taking picture in mass when the kids burn a metro station. The journalists don't film it, but I'm there with everyone just commenting at the monkeys while the western media stream them with a close angle as if they were fighting China or for freedom... While nobody is communist in Hong Kong, not even the metro station they hate so much !

I saw my entire family switch to the DAB during the protests so maybe I'm under bias thinking this produced exactly the opposite effect all sides looked for: Hong Kong is not more independent, Hong Kong is not more Chinese, but the DAB sure is more powerful - we'll see what happens if they restore the election, but at this point they can get away with not doing it and say "oh but without us it's the PLA so calm down"

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#300

Post by hh3k0 »

aaron695 wrote: post #294
hh3k0 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are denying Pol Pot killing 1 million Cambodians was "genocide". No. > As I said even by your legal definition the Chinese are not committing genocide against the Uyghurs. Counterpoint: They absolutely are. https://www.npr.org/2020/07/04/887239225/china-suppression-o...

Good link, Adrian Zenz is not big on the 'gays' and stuff, off topic but - Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation - Adrian Zenz - https://www.amazon.com.au/Worthy-Escape-Believers-Raptured-T... Although it must suck having a Chinese army dragging out info on who their opponents are, I personally are critical of someone who looks at Christian documents to pin down technical dat…

> Good link, Adrian Zenz is not big on the 'gays' and stuff, off topic but -

Off topic, indeed. And a logical fallacy to boot.

> I personally are critical of someone who looks at Christian documents to pin down technical data on the Rapture.

Irrelevant, as that isn't what we're talking about.

Your -- now flagged -- original comment referred to the forced sterilizations too. What you think of Adrian Zenz or the UN definition of genocide is absolutely irrelevant. There are no two ways about it: forced abortions and sterilizations _do_ fullfil the UN definition of genocide.

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