Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide • Hacker News Board

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#241

Post by Bakary » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

runsWphotons wrote: post #160

Bakary wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framing everything in relation to WW2 actually holds people back from looking at the problem and formulating an actual solution. Almost every relevant parameter is wildly different: analogies based on simplified similarities are seductive but fundamentally flawed.

It seems like we want to make it happen again just because it's the story we know.

But it's not going to happen again. There might be a bloody conflict, but it will not have meaningful similarities to WW2.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#242

Post by Bakary » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

_-david-_ wrote: post #119

Bakary wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with the parent comment's perspective, but isn't it deeply ironic to make this statement?

By 'this statement' do you mean mine or the person I was responding to?

The former. The proposition is a hard sell on a purely logical basis ("if you don't freedom correctly, we'll freedom you") but also in its broader context. Western nations have made great innovations in empire building and genocide from the Opium Wars to the camps, have destabilized a large number of governments, created the threat of nuclear annihilation, then lecture other nations after only a few decades of liberalization; that liberalization having come only as a result of a weakening of their relative power.

I'm not coming at this from the angle of wanting to see the West fail. On the contrary, I think it would be a far better strategic choice to focus on our current crop of governance failures instead of trying to mold other countries, return to looking at first principles instead of "End of History" magical thinking, and come up with stronger incentives and examples for other countries to try the liberal/democratic model of development than just vague appeals to values that don't even sound so great when we are electing populist leaders.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#243

Post by danShumway » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

Fricken wrote: post #218

aembleton wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has America planned the mass killing of Chinese citizens?

Yep https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/09/01/what...

No

The Millitary Times is not a government publication, and even if it was, there is nothing in this publication that advocates that mass violence against civilians would be part of a war with China.

The United States is not planning an ethnic cleanse or mass killing of Chinese citizens.

It is often the goal of the CCP to conflate criticism of themselves (a totalitarian government) with criticism/bigotry towards Chinese culture/people itself. In reality, those are separate things. Genocide is not a fundamental part of Chinese culture, and opposing genocide is not the same thing as opposing Chinese culture -- on the contrary, to argue that ethnic cleansing is just a cultural difference, or that criticism of ethnic cleansing is a criticism of culture, is itself a wildly insulting insinuation about the people of China.

The theoretical conjecturing of a civilian-run magazine about a purely political conflict is not equivalent to an in-progress government-sponsored effort to demonize and eliminate a cultural minority.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#244

Post by jedimind » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

Fricken wrote: post #207

UK-Al05 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very odd, when there's countless witnesses, satalite imagery, press teams finding these places, and the CCP even admitting to education camps that there are people going "it's not so bad" and defending CCP. Even if the camps are just "re-education camps", thats still really bad.

How do you respond to islamic extremism in your country? Attacks in Tieneman square used to be bad before it was the Uyghurs doing it. Islamic terrorism used to be bad, before it was the Uyghurs doing it. China has a responsibility to deal with this problem, and if there a nice, gentle way to deal with it, I can't think of what it might be.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with 'extremism' that's just a cheap CCP talking point. It's about the geopolitical importance of xinjiang: https://youtu.be/ZxvYcByv2M8

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#245

Post by krageon » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #131

refenestrator wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the full pattern. Does anyone think the USA actually cares about central asian muslims? With our record and the records of our allies? Or is this coming from collective anxiety over being eclipsed?

I think the USA (taken as an aggregate of its citizens' views) has a far stronger ethical compass than your comment seems to suggest. So to answer your question, yes to the former question. Maybe yes to the latter question too, but as an "and" not an "or".

The US as an aggregate of it's citizens' views must be viewed through the lens of it's leadership. From their actions, we can see it doesn't have an ethical compass at all. Unless of course you mean this in the most absolute sense, where there is an ethical judgement being made about drone strikes on children and it is thought to be acceptable.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#246

Post by cirgue » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

crashdelta wrote: post #31

yumraj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do the Muslim countries care, No!

That's the interesting part TBH... why is nobody sticking up for them?

Because Muslim countries by and large are not in geopolitical or economic positions to act unilaterally in any way that is a)remotely effective, and b) not massively costly in economic and political terms.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#247

Post by krageon » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

meibo wrote: post #175

ncann wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But have you ever doubt that why all stories about China are negative This struck a chord with me. I think most people who read news regularly can agree that nearly 100% of the news about China these days are negative, and never anything positive. We can all wonder why that is.

Because most of the "positive advances" they make are a direct consequence of their inhumane government that can afford to do whatever it wants or just plain PR. Just look at their COVID response, for example. Of course it's political as well, but there's no way around that.

Yes, but then you could make entirely the same point about the US. But generally this isn't done, especially not here. That's what makes it xenophobic.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#248

Post by ncann » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

yange wrote: post #196

jo3483754 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You cannot trust anything reported out of China" does not need to mean what you are taking it as. It is true you cannot trust anything reported out of China. But that's not the same as saying not to believe anything reported out of China. The former is a fact, you should be skeptical instead of blindly trust a country known for propaganda. The latter is racist, saying nothing China says is true. There are a few peop…

Sometimes you need to look a bit further than logical correctness. Yes the two sentences are logically equivalent: "You cannot trust anything reported out of China" "Not all things reported out of China can be trusted" But the language you choose to use has its emotional implication. Ask any Chinese, which of the two sentences is more biased.

Nitpick, but those 2 sentences are not logically equivalent:

"You cannot trust anything reported out of China" = "Nothing reported out of China can be trusted",

while

"You cannot trust something reported out of China" = "Not all things reported out of China can be trusted"

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#249

Post by koheripbal » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

nashashmi wrote: post #27

The credibility is in the statements of the Chinese that both deny and defend the practice.

No. The credibility comes from the actual evidence provided.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#250

Post by api » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

crashdelta wrote: post #31

yumraj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do the Muslim countries care, No!

That's the interesting part TBH... why is nobody sticking up for them?

Everyone is utterly dependent on cheap Chinese manufacturing. The price of manufactured goods would probably quadruple overnight if companies had to abandon China.

It’s not just cheap labor. China has all of cheap labor, lax environmental laws, cheap energy, a very manufacturing friendly government, a tech ecosystem, local expertise, and infrastructure. It’s literally the ideal place to manufacture, at least from an amoral economic perspective. Nobody can compete with China in manufacturing except in niche high skill areas.