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OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

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Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#141

Post by waheoo »

xorcist wrote: post #139
giomasce wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most laptops are more or less in the same situation as M1. Maybe they different quantitatively, but not qualitatively: devices do not have (sufficient) specs available and people need to reverse engineer them if you want to run any free OS on them. Yet people want to do that and often manage. Why is M1 different? What I really would like to see is hardware manufacturers (Apple and anybody else) releasing the specs, s…

Not all laptops. Regular stock Intel components, for example, have solid Linux support because Intel nowadays hire kernel developers to support them. Some even have upstream drivers before the hardware is even commercially available.

Yup found this remark super weird.

Mac users seem to live under a rock or something.

Got some weird idea that anything not a Mac must be windows like it's the 90s or something.

Both AMD and Intel hardware supports Linux and wouldn't ship without it. NVIDIA is really the only hold out I this space.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#142

Post by udp »

waheoo wrote: post #141
xorcist wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all laptops. Regular stock Intel components, for example, have solid Linux support because Intel nowadays hire kernel developers to support them. Some even have upstream drivers before the hardware is even commercially available.

Yup found this remark super weird. Mac users seem to live under a rock or something. Got some weird idea that anything not a Mac must be windows like it's the 90s or something. Both AMD and Intel hardware supports Linux and wouldn't ship without it. NVIDIA is really the only hold out I this space.

Anecdotal counterpoint: I bought a cheap Intel SoC laptop in 2019 thinking it would make a nice ultraportable writing machine. Things that it shipped without Linux support for: the trackpad, wifi, Bluetooth, and disk (eMMC controller). It just about works now with the latest kernel version and some manually compiled drivers, nearly two years later.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#143

Post by giomasce »

xorcist wrote: post #139
giomasce wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most laptops are more or less in the same situation as M1. Maybe they different quantitatively, but not qualitatively: devices do not have (sufficient) specs available and people need to reverse engineer them if you want to run any free OS on them. Yet people want to do that and often manage. Why is M1 different? What I really would like to see is hardware manufacturers (Apple and anybody else) releasing the specs, s…

Not all laptops. Regular stock Intel components, for example, have solid Linux support because Intel nowadays hire kernel developers to support them. Some even have upstream drivers before the hardware is even commercially available.

And that's great, but there is more in a laptop than Intel components. And you're not always lucky on that side.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#144

Post by mhh__ »

saagarjha wrote: post #138
webmobdev wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give some examples - I thought Intel was pretty involved with the Linux foundation and have released a lot of open source code?

Intel encrypts their microcode, for example.

DIY microcode is a really bad idea if that's what you mean

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#145

Post by mhh__ »

mjg59 wrote: post #114
mhh__ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now I’m gonna see if there’s an option to throw money at this. Even if I were God I wouldn't stop anyone doing it, but does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth that Apple charge the best part of 2 thousand dollars for a laptop with a basically brand-new (so not rotted) stack but utterly refuse to document anything beyond the absolute basics - this is the world's largest tech company, from which I conclude that t…

Intel refuse to document significant portions of their technology, and Linux works less well on their platforms as a result. They definitely do a better job of documenting things than Apple, but I'd really frame this as a difference in degree rather than in kind.

Intel still publish manuals hundreds and hundreds of pages longer than anyone else at their volume of sales.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#146

Post by presentation »

tluyben2 wrote: post #83
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, that goes for any guest OS other than maybe Windows, and Windows is different only because VM developers have poured an enormous amount of time and money into it. You can get rid of the sluggishness with GPU passthrough... but then the guest OS would still need GPU drivers.

It would be to Apple's advantage somewhat to make that happen right? Apple wants to sell hardware and does not mind people running virtualised Windows or Linux on it?

They also sell services though, and their products reinforce one another so that once you’re bought into their ecosystem it ties you to Apple products in perpetuity. I know because it happened to me; doesn’t happen if you’re not actually using the OS.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#148

Post by amelius »

webmobdev wrote: post #132
ogre_codes wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple _is_ a walled garden ecosystem. iOS is a walled garden. (as are it's cousins for Apple TV, & HomePod. MacOS is not. If MacOS was a walled garden, I wouldn't be able to do my job with it.

> iOS is a walled garden ... MacOS is not. Technically, that is true. But it is getting there. Apple makes more money, and importantly recurring revenue, from its services now than selling its hardware. The move to ARM processors is one of their strategic moves to further "close" their desktop platforms too. The only reason they don't do it outright right now is because they know people like you and me will immediate…

Yes, Apple fans seem to be forgetting that the ones in power at Apple are business people, who care as much about customers as any other company. And being business people they don't have sympathy for developers either and in fact would rather see their power reduced. In their best scenario, all developers become low-wage employees but without the benefit of employees. A bit like Uber drivers.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#149

Post by rualca »

rgovostes wrote: post #51

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver. On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm6…

>>Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get (...) working flawlessly

This statement is rather miopic. I still recall when this very same argument was made regarding the idea of wanting to install Linux in computers which were bundled with Windows. I can tell you it made absolutely no difference to me a couple of decades ago when I installed Mandrake Linux on a Windows laptop, and it made no difference to me that I couldn't get hardware acceleration or the webcam to work, and that wifi only worked with ndiswrapper. I was able to run the software I wanted to use in the hardware I bought, and that's what matters.

M1 Mac minis are on the market for around 800$, which is an affordable price point, and their form factor and looks make them an interesting choice for a home server or workstation. It would be incomprehensible if we couldn't take advantage of that hardware by running our choice of software.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#150

Post by coldtea »

rgovostes wrote: post #51

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver. On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm6…

>It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly

And yet people have done it with Linux just fine... Linus himself run a G5 as his desktop (circa 2003-2005) and later a Macbook Air as his daily driver laptop (circa 2011-2013...)

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