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OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

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Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#51

Post by rgovostes »

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver.

On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm64 BSD, Linux, or Windows that you want. The trackpad and everything else will work flawlessly thanks to guest additions. Yes, you make some tradeoffs -- you sacrifice a core, a few GB of RAM, some disk space for an OS you don't _really_ want to be running. But I'm skeptical that these are not better tradeoffs than constantly using a hacked-together and half-broken OS.

To me the ideal solution is not that Corellium or Marcan or whoever reverse engineers the drivers to a sufficient degree. I'd rather see Apple (or the Hackintosh types) release a tiny variant of macOS that contains hardware drivers and Hypervisor.framework and not much else. It could be the next generation of Boot Camp and it would probably take less engineering effort for them to maintain while satisfying the small segment of customers interested in running other operating systems.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#52

Post by alsetmusic »

asveikau wrote: post #5
alsetmusic wrote: post #4

So much for the many remarks made on HN claiming that Apple would use the M1 to further exert control over users’ ability to boot an alternative OS. Between this and Asahi Linux, I’d say things are off to a good start. Btw, Asahi has a Patreon page for anyone who wants to contribute. I’m tossing twelve bucks a month and recommend any Mac users with interest in booting alternative OSes support such projects. Now I’m g…

To be fair that wasn't the only type of knee jerk negative reaction here on this topic. IIRC there was another, more Apple-fan style commentary of "a free OS will never run on this bespoke Apple product, and shouldn't". I for one am glad people are making progress.

> IIRC there was another, more Apple-fan style commentary of "a free OS will never run on this bespoke Apple product, and shouldn't".

I’m the person to whom you are responding. I’m very interested in the M1 and never saw such a post. I’ve literally never heard anyone express this view about a Mac.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#53

Post by spijdar »

cat199 wrote: post #46
etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to be dismissive, but isn't almost anything a decent home server nowadays? As long as your'e OK with the performance, size, cost, storage, there are just myriad options available. Just about any PC or mac would do. Finally, we all have our own preferences, but I'm not sure why one would really want to use OpenBSD for a home server. There's less driver support or application support than just about any ot…

Have you actually used OpenBSD? Agree available drivers/applications might be less than a mainstream linux, but for what is there, things work completely solidly and require basically negative fiddling

I love BSDs and try to use them personally because I like the experience, but as far as drivers go, I feel like Linux is generally on par with the BSDs. It's the userland which can be a PITA.

Basically, I'm not sure there's enough of a difference to warrant someone who can already do linux to use openbsd. Diminishing returns if you're interested in hosting a media server or NAS or whatever people wanna do with home servers.

That said, I highly recommend running either Open or NetBSD for a while just to get the experience. For me, running NetBSD as my only OS on my laptop through my late teens gave me a great foundation for my professional life up till now in my mid twenties. Really pleasant and simple OSes, great for learning OS problem solving too.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#54

Post by sedatk »

rgovostes wrote: post #51

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver. On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm6…

> you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc

I agree with your sentiment, but that isn't as serious as you say on, say, M1 Minis used as servers and that's probably where OpenBSD would shine.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#55

Post by ogre_codes »

endgame wrote: post #35
ogre_codes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth that Apple charge the best part of 2 thousand dollars for a laptop with a basically brand-new (so not rotted) stack but utterly refuse to document anything beyond the absolute basics Computers are tools to get a job done. I buy a computer so I can write software on it. While I am happy that we can get Linux and OpenBSD on a Mac, it's not a deal breaker. Regardless of…

> I buy a computer so I can write software on it. And I use Free Software operating systems to ensure that I can continue to do so.

I fully support this effort and the Linux port for the eventual time when Apple does eventually stop supporting this hardware. But at that point in time, I won't be relying on it for work anymore, it will be a hobby/ project, much like my G4 iMac.

In the mean time, it's very fun seeing how quickly people are making progress on this.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#56

Post by Wowfunhappy »

rgovostes wrote: post #51

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver. On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm6…

I absolutely expect Asahi to get all of those things working in due course. Lots of smart people are working on it.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#57

Post by kitsunesoba »

rgovostes wrote: post #51

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver. On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm6…

> On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm64 BSD, Linux, or Windows that you want. The trackpad and everything else will work flawlessly thanks to guest additions. Yes, you make some tradeoffs -- you sacrifice a core, a few GB of RAM, some disk space for an OS you don't _really_ want to be running. But I'm skeptical that these are not better tradeoffs than constantly using a hacked-together and half-broken OS.

True in theory, but at least with Linux I've found that desktop environments exhibit a slight but maddening level of sluggishness in VMs, no matter if it's GNOME, KDE, XFCE, or MATE. If all you need is a commandline Linux VMs are great but I'd go insane trying to use one as a graphical desktop for an extended period.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#58

Post by ogre_codes »

rgovostes wrote: post #51

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver. On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm6…

> Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, the right Intel graphics driver.

It's not appealing to me now. In 9 or 10 years when Apple has stopped shipping new versions of MacOS for the platform, it will be much more interesting for me. Of course by then it's just a curiosity or fun project, not something I need for day to day. And by then, much of the wifi/ graphics/ audio issues will be solved.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#59

Post by Wowfunhappy »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #57
rgovostes wrote: post #51

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver. On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm6…

> On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm64 BSD, Linux, or Windows that you want. The trackpad and everything else will work flawlessly thanks to guest additions. Yes, you make some tradeoffs -- you sacrifice a core, a few GB of RAM, some disk space for an OS you don't _really_ want to be running. But I'm skeptical that these are not better tradeoffs than constantly using a hacked-togeth…

Really, that goes for any guest OS other than maybe Windows, and Windows is different only because VM developers have poured an enormous amount of time and money into it.

You can get rid of the sluggishness with GPU passthrough... but then the guest OS would still need GPU drivers.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#60

Post by amatecha »

rgovostes wrote: post #51

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver. On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm6…

literally just installed OpenBSD on my iMac G4 last week, haha (oh yeah, everything works flawlessly btw, including graphics acceleration)
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