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OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

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Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#41

Post by saagarjha »

rudedogg wrote: post #34
ogre_codes wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are quoting a reddit comment which mis-interpreted what Federighi said. They didn't say they would prevent alternative operating systems from booting, only that they aren't doing it . As opposed to the fact that they are in fact helping get Linux running in the hypervisor and actually demoed Linux running in a VM before it was public. Apple documented how people could boot alternative operating systems.

They're quoting Craig Federighi: https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU?t=3794 I don't get the downvotes of the parent post, the interpretation is completely reasonable. The point is that Apple was very clear that they are only supporting macOS on their hardware.

> The point is that Apple was very clear that they are only supporting macOS on their hardware.

And that is exactly what they mean. They’re not going to help you with your port or field your questions when you ask for how things work. They are just going to leave the door open for you.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#42

Post by saagarjha »

ogre_codes wrote: post #37
rudedogg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're quoting Craig Federighi: https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU?t=3794 I don't get the downvotes of the parent post, the interpretation is completely reasonable. The point is that Apple was very clear that they are only supporting macOS on their hardware.

I know who they are quoting. I also re-listened to what he said because at the time I'd made the same assumption. Apple execs are infamously careful about how they word things. Federighi could have said they won't allow other operating systems, but he didn't because that's not what they did or were planning. If they didn't intend for this to be possible, they wouldn't have shipped it this way and documented how to do…

Not just documented, documented well. bputil’s man page is probably the best new one I’ve seen in years.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#43

Post by Shared404 »

mhh__ wrote: post #38
Shared404 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of what you say, but this: > And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone has now supplanted the laptop and desktop in this regard Is just plainly inaccurate. The phone has nowhere near supplanted the desktop in multiple scenarios. Office work and programming [0] both come to mind. [0] And this was the specific use-case brought up by the parent. Pretty obvious a phone is not a compet…

My point was that the phone has supplanted the computer as the sole device for many people i.e. people of my generation will often ask for an app rather than a website

That is a fair point. I just found it important to point out that for many use-cases, including most of the ones in this discussion, phones are a complete nonstarter.

I do apologize for how aggressively I came across as well, that was uncalled for.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#44

Post by mhh__ »

paulmd wrote: post #29
mhh__ wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can no one even be bothered to debate the point?

you're misrepresenting the point, the point people make is that apple curating apps on the app store is a good thing for user privacy and minimizing spyware, and that allowing sideloading or third-party app stores would immediately negate that as some of the biggest, most intrusive, and most socially-inescapeable apps (like facebook) would immediately demand they be sideloaded in order to escape the apple rules on pe…

I'm sure microsoft would've made the same argument in their anti-trust case - you're free to "sideload" any browser you want, or just buy a mac.

Most apple users have almost zero-information in an economic sense. Market choices are being made when consumers are being segmented into very rigid, hard to leave, cultures like Apple and Google - on top of that Apple and partly google own much of the stores, they do all the marketing, and can wield considerable basically unchecked power over their users.

And also, your mum isn't going to be using third party app stores, that whole part of the argument is quite vacuous and is effectively a logical basis for Apple to have complete oversight of everything on the app. And if she did want to play fortnite, Apple obviously aren't doing this for the goodness of their customers because they only pulled the plug when fortnite did the payments itself - that's just rentseeking.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#45

Post by linuxhansl »

alsetmusic wrote: post #4

So much for the many remarks made on HN claiming that Apple would use the M1 to further exert control over users’ ability to boot an alternative OS. Between this and Asahi Linux, I’d say things are off to a good start. Btw, Asahi has a Patreon page for anyone who wants to contribute. I’m tossing twelve bucks a month and recommend any Mac users with interest in booting alternative OSes support such projects. Now I’m g…

I'm not sure I understand what Apple contributed here. It's not supported, helped, or encouraged by Apple. And Apple does not document their H/W in ways that allow reuse. Hence these are all reverse engineering projects.

Apple _is_ a walled garden ecosystem. That has many obvious advantages, things just work, etc.

Personally I happen to not like it, but it's a choice folks have to make by themselves.

I buy my H/W from vendors that actually support running Linux (in my case) like Dell, Lenovo, and others.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#46

Post by cat199 »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #31
messe wrote: post #17

Fantastic. OpenBSD on an M1 Mac Mini would be a great home server. As for desktop, I love cwm on my thinkpads, but macbook touchpads have won me over. That said, if arcan gets to a usable state on OpenBSD, I wouldn't mind sinking a few weekends (and/or crates of beer) into helping with improving touchpad/gesture support. X11 is just too daunting to have me bothered.

I don't mean to be dismissive, but isn't almost anything a decent home server nowadays? As long as your'e OK with the performance, size, cost, storage, there are just myriad options available. Just about any PC or mac would do. Finally, we all have our own preferences, but I'm not sure why one would really want to use OpenBSD for a home server. There's less driver support or application support than just about any ot…

Have you actually used OpenBSD?

Agree available drivers/applications might be less than a mainstream linux, but for what is there, things work completely solidly and require basically negative fiddling

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#47

Post by ogre_codes »

mhh__ wrote: post #28
ogre_codes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth that Apple charge the best part of 2 thousand dollars for a laptop with a basically brand-new (so not rotted) stack but utterly refuse to document anything beyond the absolute basics Computers are tools to get a job done. I buy a computer so I can write software on it. While I am happy that we can get Linux and OpenBSD on a Mac, it's not a deal breaker. Regardless of…

> If they did something that got in the way of building the software I need to build? Then I'd punch out in a heartbeat. Sadly I don't do it for a living, but the stuff I like to write is all tuned for performance, they don't tell me anything about the CPU, so even if I was in the market for one I still wouldn't buy one as I couldn't have any fun using it. And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone…

> And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone has now supplanted the laptop and desktop in this regard, but it remains true that many people are in terms of knowledge and purchasing power completely at the whim of (in this case) Apple to go about their lives.

I don't follow your chain of though here at all. It is a thing I use to get a job done... that's pretty much the definition of what a tool is.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#48

Post by bch »

This is what I love about OpenBSD (as an observer, and being adjacent via NetBSD) - in surprising ways, when they want something, they leap on it. Forefront of wireless chips, accelerated gfx (perplexing to me, but happily so), and now this? Keep it up, OpenBSD. This is impressive.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#49

Post by dannyw »

cat199 wrote: post #46
etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to be dismissive, but isn't almost anything a decent home server nowadays? As long as your'e OK with the performance, size, cost, storage, there are just myriad options available. Just about any PC or mac would do. Finally, we all have our own preferences, but I'm not sure why one would really want to use OpenBSD for a home server. There's less driver support or application support than just about any ot…

Have you actually used OpenBSD? Agree available drivers/applications might be less than a mainstream linux, but for what is there, things work completely solidly and require basically negative fiddling

If you have a mainstream motherboard, you'll likely have Realtek Ethernet drivers.

These do not reliably work in OpenBSD and will hang if you try to use it as a NAS.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#50

Post by jsjohnst »

saagarjha wrote: post #41
rudedogg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're quoting Craig Federighi: https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU?t=3794 I don't get the downvotes of the parent post, the interpretation is completely reasonable. The point is that Apple was very clear that they are only supporting macOS on their hardware.

> The point is that Apple was very clear that they are only supporting macOS on their hardware. And that is exactly what they mean. They’re not going to help you with your port or field your questions when you ask for how things work. They are just going to leave the door open for you.

I took what Craig said more as “we aren’t doing Bootcamp, run Windows in a VM”. Apple never really supported the efforts to run Linux/BSD on their hardware in Intel, why would they start with the M1?
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