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I Miss My Bar

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Re: I Miss My Bar

#341

Post by the_af »

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #263
solosoyokaze wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what's even less of a joke than COVID-19? Our histrionic, insane, and completely violent overreaction to it. Quick question: how would you propose dealing with a global pandemic? Social isolation seems like the most common sense solution, since in 2021 we know how disease is transmitted and how to deal with that.

Social isolation may be the best solution. Fine. Don't force it on us. If it's the right solution, then it will be followed. I am not going to entertain further the notion that we have locked people into their homes, given trillions of dollars to multinational corporations, and restricted the lives of everyday people, just because of a pandemic that kills less than 1% of the people infected. This is such an obvious c…

> If it's the right solution, then it will be followed

Social isolation isn't an opt-in kind of measure. Furthermore, the average person doesn't have the background or tools to evaluate whether it works. It's a public health matter, and you do have to follow the advice of the relevant authorities.

This is like the law against drinking and driving in many countries: you cannot decide to opt-out of this restriction. It negatively affects others who do decide to comply with the restriction. If caught, you will be subject to some kind of penalty (such as having your license revoked), for good reason.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#342

Post by scubbo »

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #263
solosoyokaze wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what's even less of a joke than COVID-19? Our histrionic, insane, and completely violent overreaction to it. Quick question: how would you propose dealing with a global pandemic? Social isolation seems like the most common sense solution, since in 2021 we know how disease is transmitted and how to deal with that.

Social isolation may be the best solution. Fine. Don't force it on us. If it's the right solution, then it will be followed. I am not going to entertain further the notion that we have locked people into their homes, given trillions of dollars to multinational corporations, and restricted the lives of everyday people, just because of a pandemic that kills less than 1% of the people infected. This is such an obvious c…

> If it's the right solution, then it will be followed.

I'm sorry, I simply cannot let this go unchallenged. Even a moment's thought should demonstrate that that's not the case:

* It may be the objectively-best-solution for society as a whole, but not-best for an individual (for instance, a young healthy individual who is at low-risk for long-term impact for COVID, but who could act as an incubator and carrier to spread it to more vulnerable folks). The overall-harm-done by these free-circulating individuals will, I am willing to bet, be much more than the "harm" done to them by asking them to stay home. * It may be the best solution, but to recognize that as such requires specialized scientific knowledge that the average person doesn't have. Meanwhile, propagandists are free to influence society as they wish with more-easily-consumable (but, possibly, less true) messages. * Similarly to the 2nd point - it may be the right solution, but that might not be obvious until late in the process. In this situation, trusting experts and following their advice earlier will reduce the overall harm done.

The calculus of impact here is "what is the harm done by following advice if it's wrong?", vs. "what is the harm done by not-following advice if it's right?". Folks are free to make their own decision on this, but almost-every analysis I've seen suggests that "staying home" is the massively better choice, _even if_ the global pandemic turns out to have been less-severe than first expected (in fact, the opposite seems to be true). All of that is leaving aside the fact that much of the harm done by isolation could have been offset by basic social welfare programs (stimulus cheques, UBI, etc.)

Contrary to the common American mindset, freedom is not, in fact, always an unalloyed good - especially when incentives for an individual are in opposition to incentives for a group. (ironically, I wrote this summary _before_ reading your second paragraph, but it works even better. Your argument that "a previous social program restricted freedoms in an unproductive and unhelpful way, therefore any social program which restricts freedoms is unproductive and unhelpful" does not hold)

* I'm not assuming that you are American, but I _am_ contrasting my position with a mindset that I have noticed disproportionately _among_ Americans.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#343

Post by scubbo »

m0deran wrote: post #288
AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social isolation may be the best solution. Fine. Don't force it on us. If it's the right solution, then it will be followed. I am not going to entertain further the notion that we have locked people into their homes, given trillions of dollars to multinational corporations, and restricted the lives of everyday people, just because of a pandemic that kills less than 1% of the people infected. This is such an obvious c…

> Fine. Don't force it on us. If it's the right solution, then it will be followed. Do you actually, really believe this? Do you really believe that if that the research studies come out and say “hey stay inside” that everyone will read the studies front-to-back and go “oh, it’s in the public interest for everyone to stay inside”? Is this a thing that you think will happen in America? > impose further fascism What is…

> What is fascism?

When the government does something I don't like /s

Re: I Miss My Bar

#344

Post by stolenmerch »

camgunz wrote: post #333
dominotw wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the error here is perceiving errors from medical authorities as having emotional or manipulative motivations. I think you might be forgetting medical authorities approving certain protests as being more important than containing covid. Dont want to start was flamewar here but just pointing out a flaw in your response. That was factually a 'emotional or manipulative motivation', right or wrong. > This is nor…

> I think you might be forgetting medical authorities approving certain protests as being more important than containing covid. Can you provide some examples? I googled around and found this [1] which seems like a reasonable summary of the Covid-related consequences of the George Floyd protests. The "reasons it seems like it was OK" doesn't seem too divergent from what many medical professionals are saying (don't gat…

The point isn't really about institutional racism or police brutality, per se. The virus doesn't know or care about your cause or ideology, it spreads through a crowd regardless.

The point is that there might be reasons why violating social distancing and lockdown mandates might be worth it. Protesting police brutality is one reason. Avoiding unemployment and accompanying mental health issues is another. One of these protests got the public approval of health care professionals and the other didn't. There was an entire movement called White Coats for Black Lives who endorsed the protests. Again, worth it. However, there's an entire class of folks who don't have options for remote pajama jobs. The protests against lockdowns was about avoiding the devastating effects to their lives.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#345

Post by OminousWeapons »

cullinap wrote: post #338
OminousWeapons wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is people saw China bring the situation under control in under six weeks and thought that containment rather than management was also an achievable goal here. They therefore interpreted the term "flatten the curve" in that context and assumed it would lead to containment. What they didn't see (and what was never really talked about) is just how extreme China's eventual response to COVID was relative to th…

Any sources showing that china brought it under control?

https://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-dir...

https://covid19.who.int/region/wpro/country/cn

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/world/asia/china-covid-ec...

I am also getting anecdata from people living in Shanghai and Beijing. Life has largely returned to normal outside of people wearing masks.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#346

Post by caeril »

cullinap wrote: post #338
OminousWeapons wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is people saw China bring the situation under control in under six weeks and thought that containment rather than management was also an achievable goal here. They therefore interpreted the term "flatten the curve" in that context and assumed it would lead to containment. What they didn't see (and what was never really talked about) is just how extreme China's eventual response to COVID was relative to th…

Any sources showing that china brought it under control?

I see what you're getting at here.

On one hand, yes, obviously China's numbers cannot be trusted, at all.

On the other hand, most of their neighbors, whose numbers are substantially more trustworthy, also managed to get it under some semblance of control.

Given the latter point, I'm guessing they mostly got it under control.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#347

Post by orangecat »

anyonecancode wrote: post #244
RalfWausE wrote: post #31

I think the psychological toll of the lockdowns in different countries is highly underestimated. I myself have no real economical shortcomings due to the lockdown, but even as a person who is normaly a total loner and who can spend weeks completely alone on a excessive hiking trip i am slowly going crazy... For my wife, who is a highly social character, its even worse. And i am not the only one in this mindset... wha…

This is an odd framing to me. The psychological toll is from there being a deadly global pandemic. I guess we could have made the choice to trade the toll of social restrictions for the toll of even more people getting seriously ill and dying, but whatever choices we made and are making, the fact of the matter is that pandemics majorly suck. I think railing against lockdowns is a coping mechanism -- as policies we've…

The psychological toll is from there being a deadly global pandemic.

I agree that there's going to be an ambient level of anxiety from knowing that there's a nasty disease out there, but are you really saying that not being able to see your friends and family, or losing your job, or having to scramble to work from home while managing your children's remote "learning" has no additional impact?

there's not some magical other option where the pandemic is anything other than a very difficult situation

Lockdowns aren't binary. We're allowed to consider the costs and benefits of individual measures. Banning large indoor events: probably worth it. Forbidding people from leaving their homes: probably not. And then you get into the more controversial areas like shutting down schools and trying to forbid small gatherings, where different governments have made different choices and it is not at all clear that stronger measures lead to better Covid outcomes.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#348

Post by AndrewUnmuted »

solosoyokaze wrote: post #272
AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social isolation may be the best solution. Fine. Don't force it on us. If it's the right solution, then it will be followed. I am not going to entertain further the notion that we have locked people into their homes, given trillions of dollars to multinational corporations, and restricted the lives of everyday people, just because of a pandemic that kills less than 1% of the people infected. This is such an obvious c…

I'm not making any cash on this, and I want the lockdown to continue. Because I don't want COVID and have a rudimentary knowledge of how disease is transmitted. > Social isolation may be the best solution. Fine. Don't force it on us. If it's the right solution, then it will be followed. I think your own statement is proof that this is not the case. We know social distancing works, yet you don't want to implement it.…

> I think your own statement is proof that this is not the case. We know social distancing works, yet you don't want to implement it.

I said I don't want to force it on people - I never said it was a bad idea to remove yourself from close contact with strangers during a pandemic. Forcing it on people is how you get deaths of despair, run everyone's businesses to the ground, and ruin every healthy person's life who isn't at risk.

You don't have to force it. Social distancing is a decision an individual makes, and a rational individual would choose to do this if they wanted to live without the risk of getting infected.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#349

Post by camgunz »

dominotw wrote: post #340
camgunz wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you might be forgetting medical authorities approving certain protests as being more important than containing covid. Can you provide some examples? I googled around and found this [1] which seems like a reasonable summary of the Covid-related consequences of the George Floyd protests. The "reasons it seems like it was OK" doesn't seem too divergent from what many medical professionals are saying (don't gat…

examples for what? From your cnn link '"Prepare for an increased number of infections in the days following a protest," the letter says. ' > “The right to live, the right to breathe, the right to walk down the street without police coming at you for no reason . . . that’s different than me wanting to go to my place of worship on the weekend, me wanting to take my kid on a roller coaster, me wanting to go to brunch wi…

Sure, my point is that the medical professionals responding to the protests were acknowledging that racism is a public health crisis and that the protests are both deeply relevant to the COVID-19 pandemic, and even more important than containing COVID-19. They also compared those protests to other gatherings like religious services, social events, and anti-mask/lockdown protests and said those gatherings were not as important as containing COVID-19.

From where I sit, I think they pretty well explained why they think the BLM marches in the wake of George Floyd's murder were justified. I certainly wouldn't say they had "emotional or manipulative motivations", a characterization which seems completely off base.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#350

Post by AndrewUnmuted »

macintux wrote: post #282
AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social isolation may be the best solution. Fine. Don't force it on us. If it's the right solution, then it will be followed. I am not going to entertain further the notion that we have locked people into their homes, given trillions of dollars to multinational corporations, and restricted the lives of everyday people, just because of a pandemic that kills less than 1% of the people infected. This is such an obvious c…

Consider this: influenza almost disappeared due to the lockdowns and other measures we took. Yet 3000 people in the U.S. are dying each day from COVID. Does that not indicate that this virus is a particularly nasty virus worthy of special measures? That it’s still spreading widely when the flu can’t?

I have considered it for an entire year. And my response to that is: who cares?

People are still dying from respiratory viruses at a totally unacceptable rate. We're a very sick culture who cannot handle a respiratory illness without freaking-the-fuck out.

We have way bigger problems than COVID-19, which is nothing more than a symptom of those problems.

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