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Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

reuters.com

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Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#561

Post by Dracophoenix »

fbelzile wrote: post #455
EveYoung wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But users already can by an Android or Linux phone instead. It's not like Apple has the monopoly on smartphones.

You're missing the point. Nobody is arguing that Apple has a monopoly on the smartphone market. The problem is that Apple built an artificial monopoly in the distribution of apps by making the App Store the only curator of the platform. People who decided to purchase an iPhone with an iOS license should have the right to use the device to it's full extent (along with being able to fix it themselves if something break…

That's like saying Nintendo has an artificial monopoly by allowing only allowing Nintendo approved games to be distributed for sales on their consoles. Or TV channels have an artificial monopoly for shows they buy the syndication/distribution rights for. At some point, someone decided to commit to a certain path. Calling the choice "anti-competitive" cheapens the word.

>>People who decided to purchase an iPhone with an iOS license should have the right to use the device to it's full extent

The US Copyright Office has already made it clear that jailbreaking is legal. That does not imply upon Apple an affirmative obligation to fix a jailbroken phone or create a open/fixable hardware and software platform, or make either of the two easy to accomplish. Only a negative obligation to not interfere with those who take such risks at their own expense.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#562

Post by 40four »

KillahBhyte wrote: post #259
FlownScepter wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick Google says iOS' market share is 14%. I don't understand this position at all. Google is by far and away the market leader. Their ecosystem is free and you can do just about anything in it. Their Play store's standards are utterly bare bones. The devices are cheaper. If what you want is an open source (ish) platform that you can hack on, modify, install software yourself, whatever, all of that is available to…

THIS! Say it a little louder for those in the back. I work in IT. I do not want to have a mini IT project in my pocket that I have to fiddle with. I want a device that is dependable above all else that I don't have to work on for my everyday driver. This is the same answer I provide every time someone at work ask my why I carry an Apple phone. To me the curation is part of the draw. I know that this phone will requir…

What makes you think Android is a 'mini-IT' project? I have an iPhone now, but I used Android for years. It was always great. It always just worked, no 'fiddling' required. The idea that you have to do work to keep a Android running daily is odd to me.

Now that I've had an iPhone for a couple years, I can't think of single time where the app store 'curation' has benefited me. I'm not even sure what that means. I've released apps on both Google Play and iOS, and sure, it's a little more difficult to get an iOS app passed by Apple. But what does that really get us in the end? Maybe a little more protection from malicious actors, but not much more in my opinion.

I really think the idea that the iOS app store 'curation' is a feature that we benefit from as users is a myth Apple has made us all believe. It's mostly marketing speak & a 'placebo' effect for the end user, and a huge headache for the app developers. As a developer, app reviews take no less than a day or two to clear. And you have to sit there and hope they don't send it back rejected for some vague reason, or some random contractor in China doesn't reject it because they typed in the demo account password wrong (Yes, we had this happen at my job multiple times, and it wasted many days of our time).

I think app store 'curation' and the 'walled garden' get conflated sometimes. In the walled garden, where they have full control over the hardware & the OS, they have chosen to not allow any other method of distributing apps except through them. The idea that this is somehow making my life better I will never get. Either way, that in and of itself doesn't really bother me. What does bother me is that they think they are entitled to 3/10ths of every apps business in the walled garden. There is no way that makes sense.

They charge a yearly fee for developer accounts. I think this yearly fee system is how it should be handled. If their argument is that they are providing the servers and infrastructure and manpower to provide the app store service, then they could make more tiers. For bigger customers like Epic who use more of those resources they could charge more to cover the cost. But there is no way I'll ever be convinced that a 30% fee on every transaction across the board is fair or equitable.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#563

Post by Terretta »

adamdusty wrote: post #120
darknessmonk wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how did you work out that the amount apple gets paid (30%) is the "correct" amount? The only way to find out is via competition. But due to the monopolistic powers of apple, there cannot be competition on their platform. Thus, we do not know the true cost of maintaining this platform - only that apple is able to maintain it with at least 30%. 30% is industry standard. > nobody is forcing you to use the third party…

Nobody is going to not put their app on the apple app store. Look at steam for example. Almost every game on steam can be purchased somewhere else, like icth.io or the game's website. 30% is industry standard among monopolistic players (Google play store, Apple app store, Steam). There are many other storefronts that take less of a cut, and don't require IAP to go through a specific payment system that the platform a…

How is Steam a “monopolistic player” when you say “almost every game on steam can be purchased somewhere else” and go on to mention Gog, MS Store, Epic Store, and “the list goes on”?

That Steam, and others you mention, charge 30% categorically undermines the whinging about Apple’s 30% being out of line.

I’m also curious about people’s thoughts on Sony pulling CDPR’s Cyberpunk 2077 from their Playstation store.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#564

Post by matwood »

dkonofalski wrote: post #472
stale2002 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can't sideload things Ok, and if you simply had a setting that you could turn on, that make it so your phone couldn't side load, then you still get what you want. Everyone wins, by simply giving you the option to turn off side loading, but letting others choose to do so if they want to.

No, everyone doesn't win because that exact situation has already been used before by Windows with UAC and Android with developer mode and malware/virus peddlers just started to include instructions on how to bypass those things.

Not sure why you're downvoted b/c FB was already caught doing something similar with enterprise certs.

https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_enterp...

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#565

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #543
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is short-sighted. The App Store is good because it is closed and curated. That's a main driver of the product experience. Removing the App Store irrecoverably damages the iPhone - a curated, non-malware infested, high quality phone with a consistent experience. I have yet to see any argument how the App Store harms consumers. It helps developers make more money (Play Store revenue is half that of the App store's…

Even assuming the only reason App Store revenue is that high is because of the store itself, we shouldn't treat the policies as one indivisible work set in stone. You can have a properly curated store with 10% fees, for example. And you can block malware without blocking alternative web browsers or game streaming apps.

The policies are more than fair.

People on HN get mad when others make money, but they never get mad when they want to make money too.

> You can have a properly curated store with 10% fees, for example. And you can block malware without blocking alternative web browsers or game streaming apps.

It becomes much more difficult and time consuming, and why 10%? The service is unbelievable - it provides great access to a platform and its high spending users. That is worth more than 10%.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#566

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

AttakBanana wrote: post #531
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is short-sighted. The App Store is good because it is closed and curated. That's a main driver of the product experience. Removing the App Store irrecoverably damages the iPhone - a curated, non-malware infested, high quality phone with a consistent experience. I have yet to see any argument how the App Store harms consumers. It helps developers make more money (Play Store revenue is half that of the App store's…

Um, the harm is 30% more expensive apps. If devs can't avoid the cut, its only going to get passed down to the user.

Ahh so harm now is spending any money. I was harmed by my grocery store for charging me 1.50 for milk!

30% is more than fair. People spend more money on the App Store than competitors. Developers want access to that. it shouldn't be free.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#567

Post by jaegerpicker »

yladiz wrote: post #559
colinmhayes wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what Epic's intentions are. Allowing creation of 3rd party stores is great and consumers and developers. I'll continue to support the organization whose incentives are aligned with mine.

I get why it's great for developers, but why for consumers? You'll almost have a situation exactly like the one that exists on Windows for gaming, where you have to install any number of stores to get the games that _only_ exist in those stores. You may think that it will give you or other consumers more choice, but it's a choice only for developers and it's at the expense of consumers.

Exactly, I'm a developer (mobile apps and games hopefully - if I can ever actually finish it) and I get why I might want multiple options but as a consumer? The REASON I choice Apple is the superior App Store. No where else can I find the average quality of software that is on the App Store, the freedom form viruses, and general quality of app.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#568

Post by LexGray »

keepper wrote: post #432
dubcanada wrote: post #184

I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon and then open up the Epic Game Store to install random game and then open up EA Game Store to install random game and then open up Facebook App Store to install Facebook and then open up the Apple App Store to install the Blizzard App Store to install Hearthstone and then go back to the Apple App Store and update the Blizzard App Store so I can get the lates…

...or Apple could be a true platform and not compete unfairly? You know, just a thought. They want secure app distribution? Great! Build an equitable charge model. Charge for transactions, charge for usage, don’t charge flat rates that don’t scale. Certainly don’t prohibit other payment gateways. And certain don’t punish your competitors in ways you don’t punish yourself. ( blanket certificate removals for a company…

The threat model Apple is addressing by not allowing third party payment systems is user privacy, issues many systems having securing that data, and dark patterns vs subscription cancelation or outright scams.

It is not an unreasonable thing to offer a platform with that security built in.

Blanket punishments are about the only thing that works on large corporations. Everything else can be worked around. Facebook would not have budged an inch on their app unless half their company was shut down a day. I have no doubt part of the point of Epic trying to bypass the billing system is to get additional user data they can monetize.

While it is true Apple is neither open or fair, it is reasonable to assume the many of the apps on the store have no intention of being either open or fair either. Apple is trying to stand between the consumer and rampant corporate ethical lapses. That they are also doing so in the name of corporate greed makes them hard to defend, but then I hate how much of my income funds the police.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#569

Post by rvba »

zepto wrote: post #379
rvba wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No - it’s not going to add anything at all for users except being forced to deal with a bunch of shady app stores, some of which will be deeply hostile to privacy. It means lower prices for those who are smart enough to use the cheaper store and those who cannot will stay on the official store that takes its 30% cut. In fact even the bare existence of other stores would mean that the cut probably goes down, since A…

> It means lower prices for those who are smart enough to use the cheaper store This is guaranteed false. Unless the ‘cheaper store’ has almost all of the customers, you will need to support most of the stores, otherwise you’ll simply lose access to customers. Just to break even, developers will be forced to support multiple stores. If consumers want a cheaper option, there is nothing stopping them from buying a chea…

Id speculate that there is a group of people who buy iPhone as a fashion statement and then probably dont have money for apps.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#570

Post by matwood »

mdoms wrote: post #387
dubcanada wrote: post #184

I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon and then open up the Epic Game Store to install random game and then open up EA Game Store to install random game and then open up Facebook App Store to install Facebook and then open up the Apple App Store to install the Blizzard App Store to install Hearthstone and then go back to the Apple App Store and update the Blizzard App Store so I can get the lates…

> I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon and then open up the Epic Game Store to install random game and then open up EA Game Store to install random game and then open up Facebook App Store to install Facebook and then open up the Apple App Store to install the Blizzard App Store to install Hearthstone and then go back to the Apple App Store and update the Blizzard App Store so I can get the lat…

> This is how life is as a PC gamer and it's.... actually good.

You just reminded me one of the many reasons I stopped PC gaming and either casual game on mobile or use a console.

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