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How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

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Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#151

Post by adamnemecek »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #50
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that these people Who? I’ve never met anyone who believes that.

>Poor people vote against their own best interests because they don't see themselves as poor, they see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires. You'll see the above quote very frequently in any discussion about class and wealth in the US. It's a glib strawman that makes those writing it feel intellectually superior to and condescending to their targets at the same time. Until those on the various sides of…

What is the argument to be understood?

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#152

Post by acta_non_verba »

bbreier wrote: post #137
DC1350 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese people only became wealthy after major economic reforms that abandoned anything related to communism except for the name and aesthetic

For some definitions of communism... in the US, many would have us believe that universal health care is a key component of communism and China still has plenty of that.

China doesn’t have universal healthcare free at the point of use.

The UK, a capitalist country, does.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#153

Post by acta_non_verba »

wyre wrote: post #126
pbourke wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a tremendous non sequitur. Being a world power and the level of poverty within a country have little to do with each other.

Can you give me an example? The only world power I can think of with high levels of poverty is the US, but I live here so I don’t have experience in other world power countries.

India and China are both super powers with large populations of extremely impoverished people.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#155

Post by throwawayboise »

diob wrote: post #118
sokoloff wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get out. Now. It won't get better no matter who promises what. If you have one more major vesting date nearby, maybe arrange your departure around that. I left one place where there was literally a line of 6 of us who all resigned one after the other the afternoon when our annual vesting hit our accounts in the morning. I can't imagine the day that Director had hearing the same story from all 6 of us back-to-back.

I hear you, and I appreciate the advice. There is a vesting cycle that's yearly, but ultimately it all depends on them selling them the company a few years from now (2023 or so). While I fully expect them to sell, I expect them to stab me in the back so hard that the shares are effectively worthless. I've been learning ruby in my spare time, so hoping to transition to a job that uses that in their stack eventually. I…

If your vested shares don't have a market now, don't wait around. Chances are they never will.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#156

Post by paulryanrogers »

pdimitar wrote: post #139
paulryanrogers wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is mask wearing, temporary social distancing, and vaccination asking too much from the individual to sustain the weakest and most vulnerable in society?

No, of course this is not asking too much, and my family has been doing it diligently ever since the regulations started. But I can't help but wonder if there wasn't another way, like making only that most vulnerable part of society go in lock-down -- and nobody else. Most of the elder people aren't exactly spending hours outside every day anyway (by my observations at least which can of course be wrong). And many of…

You might be surprised how many people have underlying conditions putting them at increased risk: obesity, poor sleep habits, immune system disorders. And we've yet to see the long term effects of this flavor of SARS for those who survive. Hindsight will be 20/20, so hopefully we can learn and prepare better next time.

Thankfully it appears the vaccines will be effective if enough people get them for life to return to normal soon.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#157

Post by TuringNYC »

wongarsu wrote: post #94
refurb wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basis of capitalism is that under most circumstances, focusing on “me” also produces the best outcomes for “us”. And a pure focus on “us” can lead to poorer outcomes as there is no immediate reward for the person doing the work.

The economist would say all you need is a proper set of incentives to ensure that what's best for the individual is best for the community. The AI-safety researcher would say that every set of incentives you find will have loopholes, and those will be exploited. I'm not claiming capitalism doesn't work (at least for many definitions of capitalism, and work), but we should acknowledge its drawbacks, acknowledge streng…

I agree capitalism and incentives produce loopholes, but a lot of those can be closed pretty easily with good governance. For example, many of us are tech workers and paid with stock/options/equity. This is a great system to align incentives -- we're all in the same boat to win or lose.

..except when we're not. You often see in-group worker game the system by taking ever increasing cash comp ("i win either way") or special incentive bonuses for managers who ensure delivery. Meanwhile, VCs are on first-out preference shares. Worse, you often dont know this is happening so you continue to think the real game is cashing out your equity.

This is poor governance IMHO. And many workers end up sniffing it out. The ultimate capitalist system would have absolutely guaranteed comp by equity w/o special side incentives.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#158

Post by chordalkeyboard »

djrobstep wrote: post #149
chordalkeyboard wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is literally what deprivation means - the thing you need is absent. “Deprivation” is the act or process of removing. You’re claiming someone removed the income, but they haven’t done anything to create an income. There’s no income from which to deprive them because they haven’t done anything to generate an income. > The deprivation happens through a large government program called "property law". That doesn’t…

> but they haven’t done anything to create an income "People who don't work full time should starve" is ideology, not some law of physics. > There’s no income from which to deprive them There is plenty. US GDP is trillions a year. > How does that work? Property law creates property ownership. Ownership assigned to one person is deprived from others.

> "People who don't work full time should starve" is ideology, not some law of physics.

“People are entitled to other people’s labor” is ideology as well. However claiming that someone has been deprived of something that never existed in the first place is just nonsense.

> There is plenty. US GDP is trillions a year.

So you’re suggesting we deprive people of their income because of your ideology?

> Property law creates property ownership.

Negative, ownership creates property law.

> Ownership assigned to one person is deprived from others.

So how do you justify assigning ownership to certain people? What gives you the right to deprive people of their income?

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#159

Post by esotericn »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #156
pdimitar wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, of course this is not asking too much, and my family has been doing it diligently ever since the regulations started. But I can't help but wonder if there wasn't another way, like making only that most vulnerable part of society go in lock-down -- and nobody else. Most of the elder people aren't exactly spending hours outside every day anyway (by my observations at least which can of course be wrong). And many of…

You might be surprised how many people have underlying conditions putting them at increased risk: obesity, poor sleep habits, immune system disorders. And we've yet to see the long term effects of this flavor of SARS for those who survive. Hindsight will be 20/20, so hopefully we can learn and prepare better next time. Thankfully it appears the vaccines will be effective if enough people get them for life to return t…

"Next time", I and many others will simply refuse the lockdown strategy, and if it so happens that it's a virus that has high lethality across all age groups, loads of us are going to die before the evidence is clear and we start to voluntarily reduce interactions.

"Just a few weeks to flatten the curve" was a once in a generational play. I did my bit, and so far I've been punished for it.

I really hope for our sake it doesn't come down to this again, because this time it really will be a bloodbath, rather than a particularly bad year or two.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#160

Post by pdimitar »

esotericn wrote: post #159
paulryanrogers wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be surprised how many people have underlying conditions putting them at increased risk: obesity, poor sleep habits, immune system disorders. And we've yet to see the long term effects of this flavor of SARS for those who survive. Hindsight will be 20/20, so hopefully we can learn and prepare better next time. Thankfully it appears the vaccines will be effective if enough people get them for life to return t…

"Next time", I and many others will simply refuse the lockdown strategy, and if it so happens that it's a virus that has high lethality across all age groups, loads of us are going to die before the evidence is clear and we start to voluntarily reduce interactions. "Just a few weeks to flatten the curve" was a once in a generational play. I did my bit, and so far I've been punished for it. I really hope for our sake…

You are spot on. People around here are at the brink of rioting. The limitations are becoming too much for everyone.

You are absolutely correct that there might not be "next time" even if that means humanity's doom.

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