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How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

npr.org

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Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#131

Post by bbreier »

throwanem wrote: post #15
fatsdomino001 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than any other system.

I've heard this claim before, but I've never seen it substantiated. Would you like to do so?

It depends entirely on how you define poverty- typically these claims are based on a figure of $1.90 per day as the threshold for "extreme poverty", and you can use the World Bank's calculator to verify that they are true here: http://iresearch.worldbank.org/PovcalNet/povOnDemand.aspx

But it doesn't tell the whole story. Could you survive on $2 per day? The implication of this claim is that you are not in "extreme poverty" at that threshold, but I'm not sure many people would agree.

The next natural step is to ask where the line really should be drawn? For many reasonable numbers, we can see that number has been rising in the past few decades. You can set your own inputs on the linked calculator based on where you believe the poverty line should be drawn and decide for yourself.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#132

Post by qntty »

wilsocr88 wrote: post #6

I agree with this on principle, but I just can't shake the feeling that this sort of conveniently "incidentally" leftist NPR story is slanted, and therefor untrustworthy. I've been gaslit by too much media for too long to trust anything I read from anything even slightly mainstream. Everything is politically compromised, with few exceptions (WHO, CDC, UN, the list goes on).

Imagine thinking that NPR is leftist

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#133

Post by refurb »

wongarsu wrote: post #94
refurb wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basis of capitalism is that under most circumstances, focusing on “me” also produces the best outcomes for “us”. And a pure focus on “us” can lead to poorer outcomes as there is no immediate reward for the person doing the work.

The economist would say all you need is a proper set of incentives to ensure that what's best for the individual is best for the community. The AI-safety researcher would say that every set of incentives you find will have loopholes, and those will be exploited. I'm not claiming capitalism doesn't work (at least for many definitions of capitalism, and work), but we should acknowledge its drawbacks, acknowledge streng…

Oh I don’t disagree. Capitalism without regulation can result in poor outcomes for some markets. As you said, regulations can help but also create loopholes that are quickly exploited.

But I think it’s disingenuous to say that a system focused on “we” suddenly solves all the issues with capitalism (which is what the grandparent was trying to infer).

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#134

Post by wyre »

cpursley wrote: post #91
wyre wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advancements in technology lifts people out of poverty. There is no proof these advancements in tech would not have realized without capitalism. If anything China and the USSR turning their agrarian societies into world powers in the course of a few decades says otherwise. Whether or not the authoritarianism needed to accomplish this is worthwhile is another discussion. That said it is theoretically possible to achie…

The late USSR frequently had to import its own grain and other food stuffs as it could not produce enough; it's one of the reasons USSR failed. And in the early USSR millions of people literally starved to death (holdimor). Today, despite all it's issues, modern capitalist (more or less) Russia is the largest wheat producer in the world. Not sure about China.

I’m not trying to defend the USSR but afaik the USSR failed because of Gorbachev lowered the amount of power of the state. I’m also pretty sure Holdimor was anti-Ukrainian state management holding wheat from them and less about its economic system.

China did have a huge famine due to state powers making the wrong choice.

I can’t speak about wheat production but I don’t think it has much to do with bringing people out of poverty if the state is still able to provide for its citizens.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#135

Post by esotericn »

Jochim wrote: post #119
esotericn wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Those are the most minor, trivial aspects of what has happened over the last year in the UK, and what continues to happen as we speak. How about we make a trade. I'll wear a mask in situations where others are concerned, take my vaccine, and you may distance from me as much as you'd like. You know, like I am and have been doing for eleven months now. In return - I want my life back. Let's reinstate the de…

I'm curious as to how your opinion has changed during the course of the lockdowns? I'm tired of it as well, but rather I feel the length of the lockdown is a result of the prevarication that took place in the beginning and a continuing series of poor choices intended to save political face afterwards. My opinion is that had we locked down hard and early, banning foreign arrivals until the pandemic passed globally, we…

Mostly, my mental condition has declined as I've started to realise that we have increasingly slid into considering perpetual lockdowns and cessation of democracy to be a normal state, rather than a state of emergency.

Initially, at the start of the lockdown in March 2020, people voluntarily acted far in excess of legal requirements, or even guidelines.

I think that this made sense, and I'm proud of our behaviour on that front. I remember walking out of the house, once a week, in my homemade mask, to do the weekly shop.

Beyond that, as we learned more about the virus, but bizarrely went the other way and started to make everyday activities unlawful in an attempt to control the population, well, I've been increasingly choosing not to comply for the sake of retaining my sanity.

The Government simply does not get to decide on my behalf whether I have my friends and family over for dinner. I don't give them that power; if they wish to send men with guns like an authoritarian despot, that's their choice.

I think that if we'd enacted sane policies it wouldn't bother me as much.

Amazon, Deliveroo, Uber etc should have had an 80-90% windfall tax for the duration given that their competition is essentially illegal.

Tenants with no income should have had their rent cancelled. Not delayed - cancelled.

Working from home policies should have been optional for employees. Students should not have been required to pay full rent and full fees for Zoom calls.

But we haven't done any of that. We've taken a public health crisis and used it to absolutely destroy the country.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#136

Post by pasquinelli »

wongarsu wrote: post #94
refurb wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basis of capitalism is that under most circumstances, focusing on “me” also produces the best outcomes for “us”. And a pure focus on “us” can lead to poorer outcomes as there is no immediate reward for the person doing the work.

The economist would say all you need is a proper set of incentives to ensure that what's best for the individual is best for the community. The AI-safety researcher would say that every set of incentives you find will have loopholes, and those will be exploited. I'm not claiming capitalism doesn't work (at least for many definitions of capitalism, and work), but we should acknowledge its drawbacks, acknowledge streng…

other systems don't just happen to fail. they were strangled by capitalism. given that, how do you really expect to find a better model with fewer drawbacks and put it in place?

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#137

Post by bbreier »

DC1350 wrote: post #71
Mountain_Skies wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difficulty is going to be around definitions. There are claims that communism has killed X million people, where both the definition of communism and what constitutes cause are very loose. On the flip side you have people who advocate for communism who claim it's never been tried and everything that has ever called itself communism wasn't true communism. You'll face the same issue with capitalism. The confounding…

Chinese people only became wealthy after major economic reforms that abandoned anything related to communism except for the name and aesthetic

For some definitions of communism... in the US, many would have us believe that universal health care is a key component of communism and China still has plenty of that.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#138

Post by pasquinelli »

treeman79 wrote: post #127
refurb wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basis of capitalism is that under most circumstances, focusing on “me” also produces the best outcomes for “us”. And a pure focus on “us” can lead to poorer outcomes as there is no immediate reward for the person doing the work.

Wrong. Focusing on “us” ends in ruling class and endless poverty everywhere. Alternatives to capitalism have been tried and it always fails. Venezuela is the most recent example.

Venezuela is struggling because of a focus on the collective, not because of sactions, blockades, and coup attepts... none of that has any real effect.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#139

Post by pdimitar »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #67
esotericn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way that my country has, and is handling the coronavirus pandemic, has meant that their vision of the future of society has diverged from something that I wish to be a part of. It's not about my accomplishments, but whether I feel like I have a stake in this. I have no stake in it now. They want a future that I don't want. No social ties, no bonds, no community. No counter-culture. No culture. No high street. No…

Is mask wearing, temporary social distancing, and vaccination asking too much from the individual to sustain the weakest and most vulnerable in society?

No, of course this is not asking too much, and my family has been doing it diligently ever since the regulations started.

But I can't help but wonder if there wasn't another way, like making only that most vulnerable part of society go in lock-down -- and nobody else. Most of the elder people aren't exactly spending hours outside every day anyway (by my observations at least which can of course be wrong). And many of them don't have the physical energy to be active outside, so maybe making only them go in lock-down would have been the best outcome for everyone?

Who knows. But in general the COVID pandemic has been handled extremely poorly almost everywhere. And businesses are closing down forever.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#140

Post by landemva »

gregd wrote: post #88

As someone who grew up in extreme poverty (eating ketchup soup made with ketchup packets and hot water, extreme), there are so many ways that poverty affected me, outside of this simple article. The best way I can describe it is that poverty makes you start out life in a giant hole and you're given nothing to help you dig out of that hole to reach the surface where you can then start thriving. I honestly feel that at…

This is a tough story that shows effects over a lifetime.

It's not just about EMPLOYERS or capitalism. Child support enforcement and the family court has beat the crap out of me "in the best interest of the child". They shoveled all assets and pay to the mother, using the expected lawyer tricks and then big lies. I literally won at court of appeals because the judge used fake math. 1.5 years later the lower court refuses to have the re-hearing, refuses to stop the fake math monthly number, and I lost my apartment. Ridiculous and harming my child. "Government immunity" makes it easy for them to get away with putting my child into poverty. Government doesn't care about my child.

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