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Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

franck-leroy.medium.com

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Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#181

Post by tsimionescu »

inter_netuser wrote: post #138
ForHackernews wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the work put into the network is exactly the scarce asset that is being invested in. No! No it isn't! Gah! I'm sorry but it is so frustrating to hear this nonsense repeated over and over. Bitcoin is not valuable just because you wasted shedloads of energy to make a bitcoin! It's valuable because somebody else will exchange something of value for it. It's incredibly maddening how so many crypto-libertarians suddenly…

It's valuable because of unforgeable costliness. And to make it difficult to forge transactions it asks you provably(!) burn some electricity.

No, it's valuable because people trust that others will buy it. That trust is somewhat motivated by Satoshi's protocol, but it is much more motivated by simply seeing that others trust it.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#182

Post by tsimionescu »

tromp wrote: post #152

> Sadly, the proof of work (POW) principle makes Bitcoin not physically nor ecologically sustainable. Any cryptocurrency based on this principle suffers from the same problem. Not to the same extent. A big contributing factor is the very high price of bitcoin that results from the FOMO on its finite supply, nearly 90% of which is mined already. If Bitcoin had no halvings, then its inflation rate would come down much…

If the Work is easy and doesn't consume much energy, than it's easy to forge. This is true even if 1 BTC were worth 1 cent - the cost (in Watts, not dollars) of mining doesn't depend at all on the price of BTC.

Instead, if BTC weren't worth much, people would likely just stop mining, and the transaction speed of the BTC network would grind to a halt, further driving down its value.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#183

Post by tsimionescu »

inter_netuser wrote: post #139
jonhendry18 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't sound like it's worth torching the only inhabitable planet for.

It also happens to be a huge incentive for clean nuclear power. I'm sure you don't want that though, because solar+batteries will power interplanetary civilizations somehow.

It's a huge incentive for more power, not for any particular kind of energy. In fact, the value of BTC is actually putting a floor on how efficient it is to close down a fossil-fuel plant.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#184

Post by blindgeek »

midjji wrote: post #69

There is fundamentally no way to reduce bitcoin or blockchain energy consumption, it is the very thing which enables decentralized trustless transactions and the quality required implies a minimum power use. Everything else uses authority in one way or another, and is vulnerable in ways btc is not. Reducing energy use for environmental reasons is ridiculous, the sun gives plenty of power and we have fissile materials…

"There is fundamentally no way to reduce bitcoin or blockchain energy consumption, it is the very thing which enables decentralized trustless transactions and the quality required implies a minimum power use."

Why would I want to engage in trustless transactions in the first place? All desirable social relationships are based on trust and always have been. I think a need for trustless transactions implies that one or more parties is not trustworthy, so why would I want to transact with them?

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#185

Post by apexalpha »

idrae wrote: post #101
FlyingSnake wrote: post #85

Controversial opinions below: Feeling might be hurt. - Bitcoin is popular in the west and the US specifically because it lacks the cutting edge financial networks rest of the world has. Citizens in China, India, Kenya etc can do transactions in a jiffy using their existing bank accounts, whereas ACH clearance takes longer time. - The digital Gold-rush aspect, HODLing, and no regulation makes it more lucrative to play…

"Bitcoin is popular in the west and the US specifically because it lacks the cutting edge financial networks rest of the world has." This only applies to the US, Europe has a instant bank transfer system.

Yeah I was just gonna say, it's been instant for a while now. I think outside of my country it can still take a workday though. But then again it doesn't cost anything, where BTC can cost a few dollars per tx.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#186

Post by blindgeek »

inter_netuser wrote: post #117
lottin wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin is an energy currency. Not a currency, but a digital asset that wastes enormous amounts of energy.

Last year it transacted more than a trillion dollars in transactions. It's in the top 20 or so of world currencies, and it's still in its infancy (thus volatility etc).

"It's in the top 20 or so of world currencies, and it's still in its infancy (thus volatility etc)."

My question, then, is how do we go about drowning Baby Bitcoin in the metaphorical bathtub?

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#188

Post by mk4p »

fakedang wrote: post #153
yuvadam wrote: post #17

As a Bitcoin proponent who is also concerned about it's long term sustainability, this post is an embarrassing read. The author clearly has a very poor understanding of what value Bitcoin currently has in our current macro-economic situation, and why investors (and corporations) are choosing to allocate larger parts of their portfolios in cryptocurrencies. Calling out the BTC network on its energetic inefficiency com…

As someone who made most of his wealth from BTC (really early proponent), I strongly believe there is no value to Bitcoin apart from the value people ascribe to it. There is no value in mining it and spending energy, just as there is no value in mining coal in a 100% green economy. If I put "work" to go into the bowels of the earth, only to mine a clump of dirt, does that make it valuable in spite of the amount of ex…

> And as recent evidence goes, no crypto gives you respite from the law - on the contrary, it will bind you in constant avoidance of the law.

Even Monero?

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#189

Post by mckirk »

tsimionescu wrote: post #179
mckirk wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why are people willing to exchange something of value for it? Because they can trust in it serving as a secure way to transfer tokens of ownership. And that is only possible thanks to the PoW computations, which have to be expensive enough that attacking the system would be more costly than the value you could extract through an attack. So, in a sense its value indeed derives directly from the work put into the s…

People also invested in Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme, and that one didn't cost as much energy as the Czech Republic. Even more interestingly, it seems likely that some people were investing in Bernie's scheme while knowning that it is fraud - they trusted that others trust it, not that it's secure. Point being, trust and trust-worthiness are two separate things. Most people investing in Bitcoin have not in any way co…

True, when you break it down, people will ultimately invest in anything they "trust" (well, hope) to rise in value, no matter how trustworthy they inherently are. So you will indeed have a lot of people that invest in BTC simply because they see others doing the same, since that means they might be able to make a profit.

But there's also the people that invest long-term because they think crypto currencies have a lot of potential to be adopted more widely in the future, which entirely depends on their trustworthiness. Without that second group, any sufficiently negative news would cause the BTC price to collapse completely -- and to be fair, there's always the risk of that happening (Tether sends its regards), but the underlying "trust in the benefits of the system itself" at least gives a floor for its price that's above $0.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#190

Post by shawnz »

tsimionescu wrote: post #172
shawnz wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I happen to believe that decentralized coins are a horrible idea in and of themselves, even without proof-of-work Sure, but that is a much different argument than proof-of-stake vs proof-of-work. With the assumption that having a successful proof-of-stake cryptocurrency is a net good, then what I am saying is maybe our usages of proof-of-work up until the future widespread adoption of proof-of-stake actually will c…

My original claim is that new technology is not getting funded by dumping energy into bitcoin mining. Proof-of-stake was proposed as a counter example, but as discussed it may actually predate bitcoin's adoption. It may be true that dumping energy into bitcoin can fund the adoption of a proof-of-stake coin, but that is no longer a new technology, it is simply adoption. So I stand by my original point - the resources…

> It may be true that dumping energy into bitcoin can fund the adoption of a proof-of-stake coin, but that is no longer a new technology, it is simply adoption.

I'm not sure that's true. Proof-of-stake is established as a concept but there is still lots of room for technological improvements in the implementation and user experience. New proof-of-stake coins can compete more effectively because of the trust which Bitcoin established.

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