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How to lower the price of plant-based meat

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#441

Post by nradov »

acbabis wrote: post #429
nradov wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a strict evidence-based medicine standpoint we don't have clear evidence for or against vegetarian diets. But if you look at elite athletes whose livelihoods depend on keeping their bodies in peak condition the vast majority consume at least some animal products. So empirically that should tell us something.

There could be a lot of reasons for that. I doubt the reason is that meat is the healthiest option for them; meat contains a lot of saturated fat, which athletes try to avoid too much of. It's more likely that meat is healthy enough for athletes who enjoy eating meat. This wouldn't mean they need meat, and they most certainly don't as there are a lot of successful vegan bodybuilders.

There is no evidence that saturated fat inhibits athletic performance. Vegan bodybuilders are a small fraction of the total, and that's just one sport. What percentage of elite athletes across all sports are vegan?

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#442

Post by asdff »

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #49
orange_tee wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malnutrition is also an externality. I am not sure how healthy these options are but I suspect that substituting minced meat patties, for mashed vegetables glued together with cheap vegetable oils is not an nutritional improvement.

There are plenty of very healthy meat-avoiding people in the world. Malnutrition is also a problem in the world. Malnutrition from people eating fake meat? So far, not a problem.

Vegetarian food that isn't straight up dried commodities like beans either costs a lot of money or takes a lot of time to prepare in comparison to meat, and the working poor of this country have neither.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#443

Post by jfim »

User23 wrote: post #430
jfim wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AFAIK people usually don’t like the flavor nor texture of meat. If that was the case, you would see more people boiling the meat and not spice it. If that was true, steaks would not be a thing. A good steak has some coarse salt and pepper for seasoning, but not much else. Boiling meat is pretty much the worst way to prepare any cut of meat, and will ensure that it has a tough and unpleasant texture, strip all of th…

> Boiling meat is pretty much the worst way to prepare any cut of meat, and will ensure that it has a tough and unpleasant texture, strip all of the fats making it dry, and overall ruin a perfectly good cut of meat. However, sous vide is an absolutely marvelous way to prepare meat. It keeps it tender and juicy and then you can just sear it in a skillet or with a kitchen torch to get that nice Maillard reaction taste.

That it is. It's also pretty awesome with salmon [0], 43°C for an hour then take it out, pat the skin dry, and crisp the skin in a cast iron skillet with some oil, serve immediately. Crispy skin and buttery soft salmon makes for a great texture contrast and tastes absolutely delicious.

[0] https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2016/08/sous-vide-salmon...

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#444

Post by asdff »

redisman wrote: post #235
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that I found incredibly strange about this analysis is that it is saying how older plant-based products from Morningstar and Gardein show it can be done cheaper. What??? I don't even consider those older veggie products in the same category as Impossible and Beyond, mainly because I think they taste like shit. Well, not shit exactly, but for me an Impossible Burger can completely satiate my hunger for meat.…

Morningstar is pretty good with their sausage patties and hot dogs. Some of the best in those categories. The gap between the 1.0 veggie meats and the current ones ( especially impossible) is insane though. Juiciness and flavor are completely on a different level. I love that it doesn’t feel like eating a fake burger to somewhat satisfy my craving anymore, but like I ate a burger.

I can't get over the oilyness. These things are like sponges for whatever they are cooked in. I wish they cooked more like a falafel patty, where the outside forms a crust and acts as a grease barrier for the inside.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#445

Post by henrikschroder »

runarberg wrote: post #428
awillen wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you mean is that people don't like the taste and texture of raw meat, and they're only pretending to like it because it's cooked? If you like steak cooked with some salt on it, that doesn't mean that you don't like steak. I honestly don't get the point you're even trying to make here... because people do less to prepare vegetables they're somehow superior?

No, sorry I must not have made my point clear enough (this is what I get for trying to be snarky): GP is saying that people like the taste and texture of meat. I’m saying that they only do after they have altered the taste and the texture of if. My point is that there is nothing inherent about meat that people like. This is relevant to OP as the above claim is that there is no need to replicate the texture and taste…

> GP is saying that people like the taste and texture of meat.

Why are you interpreting what I wrote as if I claimed that people like the taste and texture of *raw* meat? That's probably the most uncharitable possible interpretation of my argument. Stop being ridiculous.

> there is no need to replicate the texture and taste of meat as you have infinitely many ways to structure the taste and structure of plant based food, including ways that are superior in both taste and texture to how people prepare meat.

This is so absurd I don't even know where to start.

The whole point of the article and the plant-based meat alternatives it talks about is that finally there's something that's close enough to ground beef in taste and texture that it can be substituted, but it still needs to come down in price to be a viable everyday alternative. Every alternative that came before simply wasn't good enough, and only really appealed to people who were already vegetarian. And the success of Beyond and Impossible shows that there is clearly a market for products that replicate meat, because a lot of people want to buy stuff that tastes like meat.

When it comes to actual beef, there's absolutely nothing like it yet, in neither taste nor texture, and texture is the part that is hardest to get right. If there was something even remotely comparable, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because everyone would already be happily eating that alternative.

I'm sure you're happy eating your little salads, thinking they're superior to every other dish in existence. But you clearly don't understand why people like meat, and what they like about it, which is why you appear bewildered by these products and claim that there is "no need" for them.

These products will be a cornerstone of future environmental policy and ensure we can meet our sustainability goals for the entire planet.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#446

Post by runarberg »

henrikschroder wrote: post #436
runarberg wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture AFAIK people usually don’t like the flavor nor texture of meat. If that was the case, you would see more people boiling the meat and not spice it. But AFAIK meat eaters tend to spice their meat a lot, to an extent where there it is the spice is the primary taste. They then oil the meat and prefer it fried or grilled which alters the texture as well. With p…

> AFAIK I don't think your knowledge on this subject goes very far, because you seem to have very weird views of how and why meat is best prepared. > With plant based food you have all these options and more. A perfectly seared medium rare centercut piece of beef tenderloin is such a great experience that my mouth starts watering just thinking about it. It is also currently completely impossible to recreate this expe…

This is such a silly subject, I wonder what I said in the above comment that started this. I can just as easily say that it is completely impossible to recreate the experience of chocolate brownie with meat.

But that is not the point. I bet you only love seared medium rare centercut piece of beef tenderloin because you have learned to appreciate it. I on the other hand haven’t. The mere thought of eating beef gives bad taste in my mouth.

I bet there are million things that exists that you could learn to love even more then seared medium rare centercut beef tenderloin and I bet more then 95% of these are plant or mushroom based. Things like seared medium rare centercut matsutake mushrooms, or lightly baked eggplant paste, or raw kelp, or whatever.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#447

Post by atweiden »

diziet wrote: post #358

From an athletic or 'health' perspective, these plant-based meat substitutes have way too high fat content. You can get 93+% lean beef with 3-4 grams of fat per 20~ grams of protein, or even higher with game meat. None of the plant proteins appeal to a healthy eater, with the high coconut/canola/sunflower oil content.

> From an athletic or 'health' perspective, these plant-based meat substitutes have way too high fat content. You can get 93+% lean beef with 3-4 grams of fat per 20~ grams of protein, or even higher with game meat. None of the plant proteins appeal to a healthy eater, with the high coconut/canola/sunflower oil content.

Agreed — but it's an apples to oranges comparison you're making. Highly processed foods of all sorts have added oil.

A more productive line of questioning would compare game meat with whole food plant based alternatives like raw soybeans and lentils. I say this because my hangup with veganism used to be exactly yours here. I used to think there was no way to get adequate macros with vegan food, but it's definitely possible to hit your target macros with determination. Key to turning the corner in my understanding was realizing the fiber content (in grams) must be subtracted — at least in part — from the total carbohydrate content.

Most legumes are essentially a 1:2 ratio between protein:carbs, with negligible amounts of fat. Assuming a target intake of 1.4-1.6g of protein per kg bodyweight, you can readily hit your macros even on a calorie restricted diet (~1600 kcal).

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#448

Post by Badfood »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #413
Badfood wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meat has a better track record huh? Basically all cardiovascular diseases are caused by animal products. Those 'odd ingredients' don't seem so odd to me. Go through the list of a meat alternative one by one, you'll be surprised how mundane they are

Please recognize that the caution around new food science advances is based in experience. I’m sure most of us are old enough to remember when most crunchy fried snacks were on the shelf with oils that had no known health risk but turned out to produce widespread uncontrollable diarrhea because the oils were indigestible. I’m not suggesting these new meat substitutes have that effect but it’s reasonable for people to…

Go. Through. The. Ingredients.

Caution not needed. Nothing new here

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#449

Post by Badfood »

nkozyra wrote: post #412
Badfood wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meat has a better track record huh? Basically all cardiovascular diseases are caused by animal products. Those 'odd ingredients' don't seem so odd to me. Go through the list of a meat alternative one by one, you'll be surprised how mundane they are

> Basically all cardiovascular diseases are caused by animal products. [ citation needed ] I'm a long-time vegetarian but this kind of specious pseudo science doesn't sit right with me.

Calling it pseudo science is more in need of a citation than the original statement.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#450

Post by gcanyon »

henrikschroder wrote: post #164
WaitWaitWha wrote: post #143

A tangential topic - I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat", a terrible idea. It does not promote plant-base diet or meat consumption reduction. It is trying to be what is not. I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. Why? Because the consumer is told it is "meat", so they will compare it to meat. They will compare these patties to a real, prime An…

> I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. I think you are completely wrong. People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food. If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great abo…

I think it's a function of the quality of the imitation by vegetarian options. Years back I said the same think as the person you're responding to, because the "meat" was in no way a reasonable substitute. It wasn't at all similar to actual meat, so why bother calling it "meat"?

Now that they're getting close, I agree with you and it makes more sense to call it "meat" because it's very close to being indistinguishable.

I love a good hamburger or steak, but I'll happily give it up when there's something not-animal-based that's as good.

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