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How to lower the price of plant-based meat

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand this. I've never seen a package of plant-based meat and found myself confused, much in the same way I've never seen a carton of oat milk and thought it contained dairy. What's the concern here?

> I've never seen a carton of oat milk and thought it contained dairy I have no issues with " milk" products and labeling them like that, but people do get confused about their nutritional profiles, thinking they're substitutes for milk. They're not, and they're chemically different enough that they're not good substitutes for cooking. About the only thing they're good substitutes for is liquid milk, though I hear oa…

> but people do get confused about their nutritional profiles

By that logic, should 2% milk be allowed to be called milk? What about chocolate milk? Nutritional profiles can vary wildly between different brands and products, especially when we're talking about meat -- so where do you draw the line?

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#82
post #2

It really shouldn't be called "meat". It should be called plant-based protein or meat-substitute. The definition of "meat" shouldn't change because you press some soy to look like a chicken leg.

What about "nut meat" that seems to be a precedent.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#84

Decent article but misses a bunch. Those cheap staple crops are only cheap because they are massively subsidized, and also grown as huge, environmentally damaging monocrops. So while yes, it may be cheaper to use corn, it’s only really solving the ethical problems of meat by hedging on the environmental axis. In general, it seems there needs to be something deeper done. Something is deeply wrong when cutting out the…

> only cheap because

This is often repeated nonsense. The reason corn is a popular crop is because it yields the most calories per acre of any crop. Places without crop subsidies grow lots of corn. See Argentina, Brazil, Africa, etc.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#85

I disagree with some of the premises. First, I think that the right choice is to pick the right protein for the job, and not choose wheat and soy because of price. Mung beans, for example, are expensive because people aren't growing them. If quantity demanded grows, so will supply and supply chains, which will lower the price. It is possible that mung beans (as an example) are marginally more expensive to grow for so…

The protein yield per acre for soybeans vs mung beans is 6x. No amount of try hard is going to make mung bean protein close in price to soy. What gets me is that I can’t even source tofu that is cheaper than chicken. Chickens are very good reactors for turning carbohydrates into protein.

> Chickens are very good reactors for turning carbohydrates into protein.

The remnant wiring from my chemistry and biology classes tells me this is impossible. Did a little digging and no animal seems capable of this feat.[1] Chickens are fed a mix of cheap grains, like wheat and corn that are ~16% protein.[2] What they are is efficient at turning this protein into body mass/eggs.

[1] https://www.quora.com/Is-there-an-organism-that-can-convert-...

[2] my backyard chickens

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#86
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is a democracy.

Like the average EU citizen, I don't remember ever voting for anybody who represents me in the EU and I don't know any of the structures of power of the EU or how they work.

The last election was in 2019 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_European_Parliament_elect...

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#87
post #30

Interestingly it doesn't even discuss the obvious solution: Let people who buy real meat pay for the externalities. (Interestingly even in places where there's some form of carbon pricing - like the EU - this often doesn't cover a large share of emissions from meat production, as methane emissions are very relevant here - I'm not aware of any methane pricing scheme anywhere.)

People will just blame their governments for higher food prices and vote them out in the next election if they can: replaced by whoever promises to reverse it.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#88
post #2

It really shouldn't be called "meat". It should be called plant-based protein or meat-substitute. The definition of "meat" shouldn't change because you press some soy to look like a chicken leg.

Meat == food, not just flesh. This is a very old definition for the word. It's also still used to describe the bits of nuts that we eat ("coconut meat").

meat, n.

1. a. Food in general; anything used as nourishment for men or animals; usually, solid food, in contradistinction to drink. Now arch. and dial. green meat: grass or green vegetables used for food or fodder (see green a. 4). See also hard meat, horsemeat, whitemeat. meal of meat, meal's meat: see meal n. 2 1e.

a900: tr. Bæda's Hist. v. iv. (Schipper) 568 “He eode on his hus & þær mete [v.r. mæte] þyᵹede.”

c975: Rushw. Gosp. Luke xii. 23 “Sawel mara is ðonne mett.”

a1050: Liber Scintill. xlvii. (1889) 153 “Nys rice godes meta & drinc.”

c1175: Lamb. Hom. 135 “Ne sculen ȝe nawiht ȝimstones leggen Swinen to mete.”

c1200: Ormin 3213 “Hiss drinnch wass waterr aȝȝ occ aȝȝ, Hiss mete wilde rotess.”

a1240: Lofsong in Cott. Hom. 205 “Ich habbe i-suneged ine mete and ine drunche.”

a1300: Cursor M. 898 “Mold sal be þi mete for nede.”

c1380: Wyclif Wks. (1880) 206 “Alas, þat so gret cost & bisynesse is sette abouten þe roten body, þat is wormes mete.”

c1440: Pol. Rel. & L. Poems (1903) 185 “Thy mete shall be mylk, honye, & wyne.”

1477: Norton Ord. Alch. v. in Ashm. (1652) 76 “Without Liquor no Meate is good.”

1578: Lyte Dodoens ii. xlvi. 205 “These kindes of lillies are neither used in meate nor medicine.”

1623: Cockeram ii, “Meate of the Gods, Ambrosia, Manna.”

meat, n.

e. The edible part of fruits, nuts, eggs, etc.: the pulp, kernel, yolk and white, etc. in contradistinction to the rind, peel, or shell. ?Now only U.S. exc. in proverbial phrase (see quot. 1592). Also, the animal substance of a shell-fish.

c1420: Pallad. on Husb. iii. 708 “A stanry pere is seyd to chaunge his mete In esy lond ygraffed yf he be.”

1530: Palsgr. 245/1 “Meate of any frute, le bon.”

a1562: G. Cavendish Wolsey (1893) 30 “A very fayer orrynge wherof the mete or substaunce within was taken owt.”

1592: Shakes. Rom. & Jul. iii. i. 25 “Thy head is as full of quarrels, as an egge is full of meat.”

1613: Purchas Pilgrimage (1614) 506 “Of the meat of the Nut dried, they make oyle.”

1679: J. Skeat Art Cookery 30 “First take all the meat out of the lobster.”

1766: Museum Rust. I. lxxxiii. 370 “Low or swampy grounds don't answer well for potatoes,..the meat being generally scabby, close, wet and heavy.”

1802: Paley Nat. Theol. xx. (1819) 313 note, “The meat of a plum.”

1900: Boston Even. Transcr. 29 Mar. 7/3 “Force through a meat chopper with one-half pound nut-meats, using English walnut meats, pecan-nut meats.”

1902: Fortn. Rev. June 1012 “A bit of crab-meat.”

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#89

I disagree with some of the premises. First, I think that the right choice is to pick the right protein for the job, and not choose wheat and soy because of price. Mung beans, for example, are expensive because people aren't growing them. If quantity demanded grows, so will supply and supply chains, which will lower the price. It is possible that mung beans (as an example) are marginally more expensive to grow for so…

The thing that I found incredibly strange about this analysis is that it is saying how older plant-based products from Morningstar and Gardein show it can be done cheaper.

What??? I don't even consider those older veggie products in the same category as Impossible and Beyond, mainly because I think they taste like shit. Well, not shit exactly, but for me an Impossible Burger can completely satiate my hunger for meat. Morningstar-type burgers do absolutely none of that for me.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#90
post #30

Interestingly it doesn't even discuss the obvious solution: Let people who buy real meat pay for the externalities. (Interestingly even in places where there's some form of carbon pricing - like the EU - this often doesn't cover a large share of emissions from meat production, as methane emissions are very relevant here - I'm not aware of any methane pricing scheme anywhere.)

>> Interestingly it doesn't even discuss the obvious solution: Let people who buy real meat pay for the externalities.

Are we going to have people paying for the "externalities" of all the products they consume?

For example, the people who buy a new phone every year or half (this habit causes a significant amount of pollution, so-called "e-waste"). The people who drive their car everywhere. The people who fly a few times a year. The people who use computers (more e-waste). The people who wear clothes made of synthetic fibers and use plastic-based implements. The people who burn wood, coal or oil for central heating. The people who use electricity (the major producer of greenhouse gas emissions is power production). The people who read books printed in paper produced by felled trees. The people who consume plant-based products whose production is responsible for deforestation, soil depletion, acidification of soil, etc etc. The people who eat fish. The people who eat soy (major contributor to the destruction of the Amazon rainforest). etc etc.

Are we only going to make meat eaters pay for their "externalities"?

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