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Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

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Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#151

Post by jonsen »

ryandrake wrote: post #142
pmiller2 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like no politician wants to be seen as "soft on crime," and this carries over to "soft on criminals." Doing anything to help people in prison once they get out is politically risky in a lot of places. Just look at the number of states where it's still legal to ask if someone has a criminal record on a job application. This not wanting to be "soft on crime" is particularly pathological in jurisdictions where…

I recall being asked on a job application whether I was ever arrested, regardless of conviction . In some places, mere involvement with law enforcement is taboo.

Would it be possible to verify if you lied answering that question?

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#152

Post by cema »

jonsen wrote: post #151
ryandrake wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recall being asked on a job application whether I was ever arrested, regardless of conviction . In some places, mere involvement with law enforcement is taboo.

Would it be possible to verify if you lied answering that question?

Possible but costly. The US lacks a single information system regarding criminal history. There are private investigators, other private companies in the business of "record retrieval", but the results are not 100% accurate.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#154

Post by cm2187 »

cema wrote: post #152
jonsen wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be possible to verify if you lied answering that question?

Possible but costly. The US lacks a single information system regarding criminal history. There are private investigators, other private companies in the business of "record retrieval", but the results are not 100% accurate.

...and google. Many arrest records seem to be published online in the US.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#155

Post by cm2187 »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #123
WalterBright wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of prisons should be to simply keep people away from society so they cannot harm others. There's no need to heap punishment on top of that. That's medieval and doesn't belong in modern civilization.

> That's medieval and doesn't belong in modern civilization. The concept of retribution as justice goes far back beyond medieval, to at least the Bronze Age (see Hammurabi). In addition, it seems a common component across cultures. The utilitarian view is by no means nearly as universal. Here is a modern example: every few years you hear about some former Nazi Concentration Camp guard that was arrested. From a utilit…

Or if someone kills his wife in a passion crime, along that logic, what is the point of jailing him then? He doesn’t have another wife to kill and so there is no further harm to society expected. So he should walk free if the only objective is no further harm to society.

Punishment achieves fairness and deterrence.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#157

Post by barrkel »

slibhb wrote: post #90
barrkel wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I have the ability. I can, however, say with a some certainty that retribution is not principal component of justice, because a moment's consideration shows more considerations at play. Retribution had a place - in Babylonian times, when eye for an eye was the rule. Things have moved on.

Things haven't moved on. All modern justice systems continue to be based on retribution. They seek to punish the guilty (proportionally to their crimes) and to exonerate the innocent. It's all well and good to argue "this punishment is too severe, it does not fit the crime". But to argue that "the world has moved on" from retributive justice is just naivete. If you're interested in a defense of retributive justice, r…

You'll notice, I hope, from my comments that I've never said retribution wasn't an element. What I've been arguing is that it isn't and shouldn't be the principal component in modern justice.

An anecdote that frames my thinking: the most recent crime I've suffered was when I've been assaulted on the street - bikejacked, in fact, pulled off my motorcycle at a stop light by one hoodlum, kicked in the head (though helmeted), while another rode off on my bike. In the moment, there's anger at the perpetrators. But more than that, I feel pity; pity that their lives are so empty that the only way they see to get their kicks is to do this kind of thing.

They should suffer consequences (i.e. a deterrent), sure, but I don't really want retribution. Revenge wouldn't have brought back my bike (I'd put months of work into that bike, getting it back on the road, but when the bike was recovered it had been crashed into a parked car). It certainly wouldn't have made me feel safer on the road; if anything, it would have made the us (well paid) vs them (aimless, hopeless poor youth) dichotomy worse, not better.

As it turned out, the London police are much worse than the hoodlums. Didn't get a line-up of faces until more than 4 months after the fact, long after any hope of remembering anything. I have a lot more anger at the police than I do at those hoodlums.

I want that kind of crime to no longer be a risk. That requires a systematic solution, not a point fix of retribution, which I don't want - I don't and didn't want those kids' lives ruined. They'll just do even worse things.

I can imagine different crimes where retribution and revenge might play a larger part in the emotions of the victim. I think those crimes are a small minority of total crime, and even then justice is and needs to be rational, not emotional. Revenge, as a reaction, overreacts. Justice needs to be balanced. So I'm not sure it can be a principal component even for that minority of crime.

Turn the other cheek; violence begets violence; etc. But some people seem to use the word "justice" and mean "revenge".

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#158

Post by jrootabega »

You could also look at this from another perspective: teach prisoners coding so we have another source of desperate and obedient just-barely-competent tech grunts to swamp our actual experts and turn them into babysitters and quality control while in turn driving down their wages.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#159

Post by colinmorelli »

lldbg wrote: post #70
crispyambulance wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were complaining that inmates would deign to find work after being incarcerated. > Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? YES, everyone should be happy if ex-felons are able to find work after leaving prison. Otherwise, they just go back their previous behaviors (eg ~80% recidivism). If they can't get work, that's effectively a "life sentence".

I was not complaining about anything. They aren't ex-felons, after they are released, they are felons. I do not think you understood my original comment, since you keep quoting that sentence only. Where is the restitution to the aggrieved party? The assaulted, the robbed, the beaten, the raped? You pay for what you do, and if your enterprise is criminal, you pay in time behind bars. Personal responsibility. Why would…

Depending on whether you look at state or local prisons, anywhere from 1/3 to almost 1/2 of inmates are detained for non-violent offenses. With a reasonable rehabilitation program that focuses on getting people out of the situation that led them to petty theft, drug dealing, etc in the first place, we could probably take 30-40% of the population out of prisons and reintegrate them to society with no discernible impact on public safety.

This would be without even touching any “wife-beater,” rapist or murderer.

There are a lot of people unnecessarily locked up for absurd sentences compared to the crime who absolutely deserve another chance at society. We should actively want that. It’s a net good for society and it happens to be a lot less expensive, too.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#160

Post by ryanmarsh »

I think it’s a wonderful idea but it’s going to require a ton of help both political, social, and economic to really become a thing that makes a difference.

State prisons in the US are hell holes. The facilities are terrible, the people (many) are legitimately terrible, and the staff are terrible too.

First you have to find a place where you can have computers at all, no googling for answers because they won’t be allowed internet access.

Then you have to select from the general population, people who won’t destroy the machines, have the social and study skills required to complete the training. It’ll be very few.

Then there’s the absolutely dipshit power tripping staff. Do you know of any good teachers who want to drive out to a Texas prison in the middle of nowhere each day to teach programming?

I have a brother in state prison who would love a program like this. He’s also far more intelligent than me. But to hear him describe the people and conditions, it’s really bad.

I want this to be a thing for inmates but it’s going to require a lot of work.

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