Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims • Hacker News Board

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#441

Post by selimthegrim » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 6:30 AM UTC

nethunters wrote: post #393

kamel3d wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems you have no understanding what Ahmadiyya standing for, let's clarify something first, one morning an Orange start calling herself Apple, should we start calling this Orange apple? should to Orange get offended if we still call it Apple? well we have to call the Orange Orange based on our well established understanding of the characteristics of a na orange and what makes it different, Ahmadiyya is widely conside…

Funnily enough the Ahamdis don't consider normal Muslims to be Muslims too! Statements of Mirza Basheer-ud-Din, Ghulam Ahmad’s son and successor, including what he wrote in his book Ayena-e-Sadaaqat (p.35): “Verily, every Muslim who does not pledge allegiance to the Promised Messiah (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad), whether he heard of his name or not, is a disbeliever and outside the fold of Islam!” He is also quoted in the Qad…

Like Jinnah, Mirza Basheer said a lot of things at one time and a lot of diametrically opposite things at another. Punishing people who aren't dead for something someone who is dead said is a bad idea, so is predicating citizenship rights. Do you think I asked for who my parents were? Do you think it's fair they couldn't even register their marriage in Pak and could only give Nikahnama to American embassy on the way out?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#442

Post by selimthegrim » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 6:37 AM UTC

nashashmi wrote: post #390

throwaway123x2 wrote: post #91

Pakistan's attitude towards Ahmadiyya is trash. It's ridiculous to me as a Pakistani that a country born to counter the persecution of minorities should so blatantly persecute them itself. I genuinely cannot process the hypocrisy.

The Ahmadiyya movement is seen also as a cult. As someone who resisted the idea of discrimination for some random accusatory beliefs, I later realized the group does not reciprocate non discrimination but discriminates even harder. Some of this can be understood. Because intra support is a characteristic along minorities. But the level is not just support but also active hate and cult like behavior.

You're not wrong, but tightening the screws on them (Ahmedis) is only going to make them burrow further in. Does anything in Khatm-e-Nubuwwat and the like's behavior seem to you like on average they're interested in conversion?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#443

Post by Wintereise » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 6:37 AM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #307

mcguire wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article, Pakistan (along with China, Vietnam, Germany, Nigeria, and Russia among others) requires physical presence and data localization in order to do business.

Or what? A physical presence is one of the only leverage points they'd have over you. If you don't accede to that, what are they going to do? Obviously I'm describing a much different tack than Google and Apple have chosen, and switching between the two isn't easy. But the point is that Google and Apple could have set themselves up this way, likely with the full blessing of the State Department. They chose not to and…

As it stands, as someone from one of those countries that's recently managed to reign in companies without such physical presence, there's a lot they can do.

It typically starts from automated ISP/NSP level blockages of assigned IP spaces, then an import / licensure ban and typically even extends to full ban on payment outflow (or automatically enforced surcharges).

To effectively fight against this, the company has to be prepared to lose access to its entire userbase in that country. As we've found more and more often recently though, not many are.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#444

Post by selimthegrim » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 6:41 AM UTC

nashashmi wrote: post #391

valarauko wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The community also produced Pakistan's first Nobel Laureate, and the first Muslim to receive a Nobel for science. Upon his death, the Pakistani government defaced his gravestone to remove the word "muslim". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam

Indeed they are highly educated minority. Often it is thought that the British facilitated their establishment and growth and gave them opportunities both in the colony and abroad from which they prospered.

It's true that they did take British money to establish early colleges in Punjab but no more (and quite a bit less) than the DAV schools did. But the story of British conspiracy falls apart when you consider they dragged MGA into court on charge of mailing a letter inside a parcel. If he was really working for Punjab CID or whatnot do you think they would have bothered with that or he would have bothered writing effusive letters of praise to judge when he was acquitted?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#445

Post by tim333 » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 7:33 AM UTC

LiberatedLlama wrote: post #359

mensetmanusman wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google was the only tech company that took a moral stance and left China I thought? It hurt their income so bad new leadership tried to get back in...

No matter what the PR departments of these corporations would have us believe, when push comes to shove it's always about the money. These corporations are fair-weather activists at best .

I think Larry and Sergey still basically control the thing. They both have far more money than they know what to do with. Why would they compromise that much when the money makes no difference to them?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#446

Post by tim333 » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 7:37 AM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #300

djrogers wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

Apple is in a self imposed category of only legit legal way to install software on users devices and is thus morally keeping users from practicing their religion. The logical thing is to make Apple decide between servicing the entire American and European market and caving to repressive regimes.

>thus morally keeping users from practicing their religion

Many religions actually predate iphone apps and thus may be able to get on without them. I think Moses himself got by with basic html though I may be wrong on that.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#447

Post by Layke1123 » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 7:45 AM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #417

Layke1123 wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if someone made a bible that claimed Jesus was not the son of god, but just a man. I assume you would be ok with that? What if someone makes a bible that says Jesus was engaged in a homosexual relationship with his disciples? I'm curious if you can draw the lines on those or if that's harder to say "this is clearly allowed".

>What if someone made a bible that claimed Jesus was not the son of god, but just a man. I assume you would be ok with that? Like the Qur'an? No problems bud. >What if someone makes a bible that says Jesus was engaged in a homosexual relationship with his disciples? If I actually thought their religion truly believed that, absolutely a-ok. If they were doing it to be assholes, I'd still have no problems with it but I…

Ahh so now what about banning child pedophilia in holy books? How do you feel about religions texts the promote that particular viewpoint?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#448

Post by nethunters » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 7:57 AM UTC

selimthegrim wrote: post #441

nethunters wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough the Ahamdis don't consider normal Muslims to be Muslims too! Statements of Mirza Basheer-ud-Din, Ghulam Ahmad’s son and successor, including what he wrote in his book Ayena-e-Sadaaqat (p.35): “Verily, every Muslim who does not pledge allegiance to the Promised Messiah (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad), whether he heard of his name or not, is a disbeliever and outside the fold of Islam!” He is also quoted in the Qad…

Like Jinnah, Mirza Basheer said a lot of things at one time and a lot of diametrically opposite things at another. Punishing people who aren't dead for something someone who is dead said is a bad idea, so is predicating citizenship rights. Do you think I asked for who my parents were? Do you think it's fair they couldn't even register their marriage in Pak and could only give Nikahnama to American embassy on the way…

The point was aimed at the classification of Ahamdis as not being Muslim and how the founder and main leaders of the Ahmadiyya even seen their movement as radically different to mainstream Islam. I haven't seen any statements of them opposing these views.

Regardless, I wasn't advocating or defending their persecution.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#449

Post by boomboomsubban » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 9:41 AM UTC

Layke1123 wrote: post #447

boomboomsubban wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What if someone made a bible that claimed Jesus was not the son of god, but just a man. I assume you would be ok with that? Like the Qur'an? No problems bud. >What if someone makes a bible that says Jesus was engaged in a homosexual relationship with his disciples? If I actually thought their religion truly believed that, absolutely a-ok. If they were doing it to be assholes, I'd still have no problems with it but I…

Ahh so now what about banning child pedophilia in holy books? How do you feel about religions texts the promote that particular viewpoint?

Like cults? Claiming religious authority to abuse someone is a crime basically everywhere.

If you're trying to refer to Muhammad, calling a few lines about a political marriage not contained in the Qur'an "promoting that viewpoint" is assholish behavior.

If there's some other target or just a hypothetical, it would depend on how the religion viewed the section today.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#450

Post by michaelmrose » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 11:03 AM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #446

michaelmrose wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is in a self imposed category of only legit legal way to install software on users devices and is thus morally keeping users from practicing their religion. The logical thing is to make Apple decide between servicing the entire American and European market and caving to repressive regimes.

>thus morally keeping users from practicing their religion Many religions actually predate iphone apps and thus may be able to get on without them. I think Moses himself got by with basic html though I may be wrong on that.

You probably wouldn't allow Comcast to filter out all catholic content for subscribers even though the internet hadn't been thought of when the religion was founded.