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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#401

Post by Bakary »

franga2000 wrote: post #336
nomoreusernames wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

french secularism is beautiful. all are equal under law. and freedom FROM religion. if your friend and his friends had this thing where they chopped of skin from their babies genitals. would you be ok with that? why is it ok when religious people do it? clearly following dogma in this case over reason is the symptom of mental illness or damage. religions are much more oppressive if you ask me. they function without a…

Not sure if what you're talking about is French secularism, but I definitely agree with it up until the "mental illness" part. That part is where things become dangerous. Sure, churches and religions aren't special and they should follow the exact same rules as any other group of people and/or legal entity. But the moment you start mandating how people should think/what they should believe, even if their beliefs are…

In his defense, religious belief has a history of sliding down that slope at full speed in most cases when left to its own devices. I feel that religious extremism is often treated much less harshly than secularist abuses. One example of that is how various Western countries reacted to that French teacher being beheaded: they were more immediately concerned with discrimination than with the actual murder and its implications.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#402

Post by snoshy »

pas wrote: post #282
snoshy wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure seems additive in this case. Google & Apple can choose not to do business in regulatory regimes that are oppressive in nature. That obviously comes at a direct cost of lost revenue from abstinence. It is a deliberate choice to do business anywhere at all. The simple fix here as you say, would be to stop doing business when forced to enact business practices that further oppression. Make no mistake, it is mone…

If they choose not to do business will that fix the problem? Will that make these oppressive regimes go away? Monetary greed might be good or bad, they might or might not be doing business there for greed, but it's not the question. The question is how does oppression algebra works. An oppressive regime is oppressive, by definition, nomen es omen. In this instance we likely agree that forcing private companies to sel…

Oppressive regimes even of the most extreme order still need to deal with reality and the choices of other parties that aren't fully within their control. If Google/Apple were to take a stand here and walk away, it would put tremendous pressure on Pakistani government, and make this a hot button issue. Imagine the entire nation waking up one day to find that their apps no longer function because their leaders made choices that they likely weren't even aware were being made. It would certainly cause the constituents of these regimes to reconsider their support of the leaders. Pakistan is a democracy, however broken it may be, and you can sure bet that other political parties would step in to fill this role.

> In this case maybe the analogy is that Apple/Google is supplying water - for money - but this oppressive regime uses it to waterboard people.

I mean no, that's definitely not the analogy. When Google/Apple remove these apps from their stores, they're directly taking action to further the oppression. It's not some innocent bystander thing, they literally have to write code or take other actions to make this happen. Remember, the status quo is that the apps stay in the store today. An explicit action is required to change that.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#403

Post by justicezyx »

whynaut wrote: post #255
justicezyx wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually, the assertive arguments on non-technical ideas are difficult to address. It's easy to identify the fundamental misconception in the argument. But the proponent is always very fervent on that point from the very beginning. That makes the debate more ideological and less rational. That's the conundrum of such debates. The balance heavily favors the first one who claimed the high ground, regardless what value t…

Can you elaborate on this? I feel like I grok 55% of this, and that it is probably worth grokking, if I could get there.

So rational arguments have to be based on the foundation that either or both of the opposite sides can and should change thoughts based on the information exchanged during the conversation.

Assertive non technical argument usually is based certain belief(s), which are often obviously wrong outside it's narrow scope.

But these arguments are held by people actually believe in them with a conviction that is clearly based on emotions therefore by definition irrational.

So when someone engaged in such argument and tries to argue otherwise, the discussion has to be like try to mold a steel cylinder with a bear hand. Sure you can wear down a steel cylinder with bear hand, through enough patience and time. But in the span of a discussion, that's impossible.

Thus, the one who stick the steel cylinder first is bound to win, or at least not loose, for example, the counterpart decide to stick their own cylinder and 2 sides appear no longer engage, until the circumstance requires the clash or some random side wire that causes the clash.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#404

Post by wizardofmysore »

mabbo wrote: post #280
djrogers wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

> A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not I've said this before, but if you only do the ethical thing when it doesn't cost you anything, you aren't actually an ethical person. You're just an opportunist. Companies that say they have to do the unethical thing because otherwise shareholders will get mad or fire them, well they're doing the same thing, but it's avoiding personal costs (ri…

How is it ethical to deny information discovery to oppressed people?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#405

Post by babesh »

zepto wrote: post #387
babesh wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, let’s take it even further. How about the right to vote? Would it ok to do business in a country where women don’t have the right to vote? How about apartheid? How about slavery? How about genocide? Where is your line and on what basis would you make it? Do you even have a line?

No - I just don’t think Apple has the power to stop religious repression in Pakistan. Despite being asked, you haven’t actually explained how they can do this. Also, I ask again: do the people of Pakistan want Apple to abandon their customers in Pakistan?

They can do any of the following: - stop branding their morality (especially Apple) - stop doing business in Pakistan

You go try asking them.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#406

Post by wreckagedemon »

franga2000 wrote: post #331
pas wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is oppression additive/cumulative/composable/transitive? When someone has the power to do "fix" things but chooses not to, then that someone is partially responsible. Can A or G (or together) fix this?

For one, not being able to use Google or Apple products would be such a hit to the modern way of life that people might become less complacent. To be very clear, I am not blaming the people in any way for the situation they are in, but it makes sense that people would be more likely to stand up to tyranny when something very important to them is swiftly taken away. Even the simple act of taking a stance against these…

"To be very clear, I am not blaming the people in any way for the situation they are in"

Perhaps you should blame the people, if by the people you mean the Pakistani populace. I say this as a Pakistani. The issue of discrimination towards Ahmedis is something that has widespread support among the populace. From uneducated masses to university professors, poor to rich. Very few people actually oppose the discrimination towards Ahmedis.

And those who speak up to support Ahmedis have to be very careful. The issue with Ahmedis is always pretty closely linked to the issue with blasphemy and of protecting the "Prophet's honor" in Pakistan.

Many people have been killed over the blasphemy issue and even those who would say that blasphemy laws need to be revised were killed.

You can look up the murder of Salman Taseer, the chief minister of Punjab (one of Pakistan's 4 provinces, and the largest province by population). Taseer was killed by his own bodyguard for saying that blasphemy laws should be reviewed.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#407

Post by birksherty »

djrogers wrote: post #213
zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

Apple Google are villains because they control what and how app installs by having the app store. If it was like Windows pc it wouldn't be like this. They chose this method, in applied case a walled garden that only they can control, so must be responsible.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#408

Post by birksherty »

passivate wrote: post #187
username90 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

>Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened. In this particular case, what problem would open platforms solve? The laws in Pakistan still exist and the social problem is not addressed. Or are you implying that Apple and Google should be on the hook for solving religious prob…

They can't ban a windows pc software like this as it's not walled garden. When phones come with app store, they must be responsible.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#409

Post by IdiocyInAction »

AlexandrB wrote: post #223
andrejserafim wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally right. Remember that capital doesn't have a nation. Companies registered in the US have to comply with US laws. But a legal entity in Pakistan have to obide by those rules. And if it's profitable - they will. Replace Pakistan with any other country name, the argument doesn't change. It's the law in that jurisdiction. You can't really mix and match the legislation you like and don't like. No idea if the partic…

So much for: "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." [1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Gilmore

That quote was from a different era where the internet was seen as a bringer of free information and hope, unfortunately.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#410

Post by birksherty »

jmull wrote: post #135
FriedrichN wrote: post #20

Just another reason why you don't want companies like Apple and Google to be the gatekeepers. Technology can set you free, but only if you let it. If you don't, it can easily become a new tool of oppression.

Sigh The problem here lies with Pakistan, not Apple and Google. An alternate App Store operating in Pakistan would be subject to the same unjust laws as them. The most Apple and Google can do is leave the market. There's an argument for that, but that doesn't make those apps available in Pakistan, and, more importantly, doesn't end the oppression of Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan. There are arguments against gatekeepi…

They can't ban a windows pc software like this as it's not walled garden. When phones come with app store, they must be responsible.
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