Pakistan's attitude towards Ahmadiyya is trash. It's ridiculous to me as a Pakistani that a country born to counter the persecution of minorities should so blatantly persecute them itself. I genuinely cannot process the hypocrisy.
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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
251–260 of 515 posts
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#252Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'll say it here again: There are basic human rights, that when breached by a law, make the law a crime.
Even the definition of basic human rights is disputed. Just check the topics of abortion, access to internet, property, religious freedoms, sexual orientation. In some countries some of those are defined as basic human rights, in others some are outright banned.
Yes, and those countries are places that people usually look for how to leave.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem lies with Pakistan and Apple and Google. If the apps in question could be installed without an App Store blocking them would be much harder. The entity creating the apps does not seem to have a commercial presence in Pakistan and the Pakistani government would have no jurisdiction over their actions. Having large commercial intermediaries with money on the line is really convenient when you want to get so…
You're suggesting that if Apple and Google create an app-loading mechanism that makes it difficult for them to block an app, that Pakistan will simply let them off the hook. I don't think so. Why wouldn't Pakistan simply require them to block it anyway? > ...since the people who run the site, including Zafar, do not live in Pakistan Not relevant. In this case, Apple and Google do business in Pakistan. You can argue t…
I'm suggesting that Apple and Google should not be in position to decide what users run on their apps. On Android, it is rather close to it (sans push notifications, which are not available without Google Play services, and without which background apps running is somewhat problematic), but Apple is a completely opposite.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right now Pakistan is able to block any service they deem as illegal by getting Google and Apple to block it. They have two gates they need to close. If users could load any apps they want outside of the google and apple stores there would be many gates that countries like Pakistan would need to close. Not only more gates but new gates opening every day. Basically, it would be the old internet model, which is very di…
On Android it is relatively trivial to install applications from outside the Google Play Store.
True, but with a catch.
If your app requires some sort of background functionality (it is a messenger, or anything) you would have to run through some ugly hoops to keep it running, or you have to rely on push notifications. And push notifications are not available for sideloaded apps.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Try not to shoehorn something that has no consensus into every legal issue. Issues can be moral, legal, neither, and both. Presuming an issue is strictly legal can preemptively invalidate efforts to address moral aspects of the issue. If the moral aspect of an issue has universal consensus, there is little to discuss. This criteria shuts down meaningful discussion of ethics. Edit: Laws follow from values, especiall…
Usually, the assertive arguments on non-technical ideas are difficult to address. It's easy to identify the fundamental misconception in the argument. But the proponent is always very fervent on that point from the very beginning. That makes the debate more ideological and less rational. That's the conundrum of such debates. The balance heavily favors the first one who claimed the high ground, regardless what value t…
Can you elaborate on this? I feel like I grok 55% of this, and that it is probably worth grokking, if I could get there.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sigh The problem here lies with Pakistan, not Apple and Google. An alternate App Store operating in Pakistan would be subject to the same unjust laws as them. The most Apple and Google can do is leave the market. There's an argument for that, but that doesn't make those apps available in Pakistan, and, more importantly, doesn't end the oppression of Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan. There are arguments against gatekeepi…
The problem lies with Pakistan and Apple and Google. If the apps in question could be installed without an App Store blocking them would be much harder. The entity creating the apps does not seem to have a commercial presence in Pakistan and the Pakistani government would have no jurisdiction over their actions. Having large commercial intermediaries with money on the line is really convenient when you want to get so…
> If the apps in question could be installed without an App Store..
Android already allows side loading apps which don't have to come from an app store.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#257Pakistan's laws are clearly wrong, but Apple and Google do not and should not have the authority to bypass any country's laws.
I would argue that Google, Apple, and any other group or individual should have the choice to ignore laws. When immoral laws are flaunted to promote the common good, it's called civil disobedience. Likewise, governments are free to investigate and punish those people. Also likewise, the population is free to form their own opinions about the "criminals" and government.
That's society. We shouldn't throw our hands in the air and blindly follow all laws just because there's no objective truth.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#258Censorship by monopolies is worse than censorship by government
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
And the (rather massive) flaw in yours is the idea that "fixing" and "not fixing" a problem are the only two possible outcomes. Would Apple and Google condemning this policy and refusing to comply "fix" the problem? Probably not. Is it the right thing to do? Of course! One certainly shouldn't help enforce an unjust law. This action lends a huge amount of credibility to an immoral policy. We're focusing on this mere "…
Ultimately "refusing to comply" means exiting the Pakistan market (and accepting arbitrarily harsh fines and criminal punishments for their employees until they do). > One certainly shouldn't help enforce an unjust law. The law is being enforce on them. Your moral responsibility for a situation is proportionate to your power over that situation. Apple and Google have some sway due to their size, but it seems to me it…
I'm confident we only disagree on the threshold of injustice. Surely there is a point where exiting the market is the only moral thing to do? Or does the responsibility-proportional-to-power argument justify subjecting your business to literally any law?
To me, this law is past the threshold where it is morally acceptable to continue to do business in that nation. For you, that threshold is somewhere else, but I'm confident that you have one. Which of the following semi-hypothetical laws would it be acceptable for an American company to enforce, rather than ceasing business operations in the country?
1. Take-down of apps used to propagate what the state considers blasphemy
2. Take-down of apps used to advertise the democratic candidate of the party opposing the party in power
3. Requirement that the location data of all users of a certain set of apps, e.g. Grindr, be actively provided to state officials
4. Requirement that the location data of all users be provided to state officials with a court order
5. Same as 4, but without a court order
6. Requirement that the state be given the ability to arbitrarily adjust the prominence of web search results
I could go on, but you get the picture. I'll bet there are things on this list that you would be uncomfortable with your employer, or an American company whose services you used, helping to enforce. There are also probably some things on the list that you think are futile for individuals or companies to resists, even if you wish the law wasn't that way. I think that's is all there is to our disagreement: That we draw the line in a slightly different spot.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#260How should multinational conglomerates like Apple and Google handle sovereign nation states that violate The Golden Rule? I think the best case scenario is to deescalate the situation while also minimizing the impact of the violation; I don’t have a clue how best to achieve this lofty goal.
Not operate in those spaces?
Suppose I've got a search engine. It's the best there is for searches in politics, sports, health, education, shopping, entertainment, and nearly everything else.
Country X passes a law that says search engines cannot return politics results.
If I stay in country X and filter out politics then the people in country X end up with no politics search and the best search in the world in all the other categories.
If I decide to not operate in X then the people there use some second rate search engine that obeys X's law. The people of X still end up with no politics search and they end up with second rate search in all the other categories.
How does my not operating in X help the people of X?