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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#191

Post by zepto »

jariel wrote: post #169
bluejekyll wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took me a second to get this argument, but it’s a good one. If there were thousands of marketplaces on iOS and Android, then Pakistan would have to negotiate the removal on all of this platforms, as opposed to only two. Spelling it out clearly like that, it makes me wonder if there are many governments that prefer to have monopolies to deal with, rather than many companies. It certainly makes regulation simpler.

I personally worked for a large tech company and was involved with 'content filtering discussions' with questionable regimes. HN doesn't like such arguments, it's not an argument, just an experience. It's common. Pragmatically speaking, it's much harder for Pakistan to filter the entire web, than control international conglomerates which they generally can do. We need diversity in search, and absolutely need to have…

> Apple's 30% cut is a pretty obvious harm once you do the economic calculation.

Not really. You have to compare it to a counter-factual, and those are generally made up to support whatever position you already hold.

Also, it’s not 30%. It’s 15% for almost all developers.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#192

Post by zepto »

babesh wrote: post #172
avianlyric wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is your point?

They are hypocrites. They loudly proclaim how moral they are but when it is inconvenient/unprofitable their morality disappears.

They might think that it’s better for people to have access to their technology than not to, even if certain apps are unavailable.

Would it be ethical for them to abandon all of their customers in Pakistan over this?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#193

Post by chickenpotpie »

ozborn wrote: post #154
rmrfrmrf wrote: post #37

Pakistan's laws are clearly wrong, but Apple and Google do not and should not have the authority to bypass any country's laws.

A country's law can be bypassed by not doing business there, an option that Google is already familiar from its 2010 decision regarding China. Pakistan is a large country, but I don't think it is a big market for Google - certainly much smaller than China. Also, I found it disingenuous that Google plays "it's the law card" when it spends millions of dollars a year lobbying in the United States to get laws changed. No…

That’s literally the opposite of what bypassing means

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#196

Post by justicezyx »

jshevek wrote: post #183
vmception wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Astute observation. Try not to shoehorn something that has no consensus into every legal issue. The entire discussion to me is as simple as I stated.

> Try not to shoehorn something that has no consensus into every legal issue. Issues can be moral, legal, neither, and both. Presuming an issue is strictly legal can preemptively invalidate efforts to address moral aspects of the issue. If the moral aspect of an issue has universal consensus, there is little to discuss. This criteria shuts down meaningful discussion of ethics. Edit: Laws follow from values, especiall…

Usually, the assertive arguments on non-technical ideas are difficult to address.

It's easy to identify the fundamental misconception in the argument. But the proponent is always very fervent on that point from the very beginning. That makes the debate more ideological and less rational.

That's the conundrum of such debates. The balance heavily favors the first one who claimed the high ground, regardless what value that one actually stands for.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#197

Post by paganel »

buran77 wrote: post #19
sanxiyn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such as Switzerland.

Many European countries (like Germany, Italy, Austria, Spain, Portugal, Finland, parts of UK*, Poland, Russia) have blasphemy laws going as far as mandating prison terms, even if they rarely convict or even indict anyone under them. * corrected from "UK".

Not a prison term but just recently a Romanian member of Parliament has been fined by Romania's anti-discrimination committee for (they say) putting the person of Virgin Mary in a non-appropriate context (he had called her "surrogate mother").

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#198

Post by rcoveson »

jmull wrote: post #128
zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

The (rather massive) flaw in your reasoning is the idea that Google and Apple are the solution to the problem. If you live in a society without religious freedom, that's a big problem, but Apple and Google can't fix it. If you care about the problem, it's important to understand this. If you succeed in getting people to focus on symptom of the problem and not the cause, you will help prevent it from being addressed.

And the (rather massive) flaw in yours is the idea that "fixing" and "not fixing" a problem are the only two possible outcomes.

Would Apple and Google condemning this policy and refusing to comply "fix" the problem? Probably not. Is it the right thing to do? Of course! One certainly shouldn't help enforce an unjust law. This action lends a huge amount of credibility to an immoral policy.

We're focusing on this mere "symptom" of the problem because it's Apple and Google. Our laws govern those companies. Our (seemingly theoretical) ability to control them means we are partially responsible when they do bad things.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#199

Post by r00fus »

kahlonel wrote: post #120

To get an idea how rampant Islamism is in Pakistan when it comes to Ahmadis, read this: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-politics-idUSKCN... Pakistan will literally sacrifice its economy for the sake of keeping Mullahs happy. It's sad and despicable.

You speak as if the same isn't in effect everywhere else. Sure the example here is more stark, but look at the sacrifice of environment and warmongering the US does for the oil industry, or look at any number of moves China makes to benefit members of CCP party members over it's populace.

It is sad and despicable and entirely human nature.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#200

Post by 1024core »

This only applies to Pakistan. It isn't Google's or Apple's place to fix Pakistan's problems. A company has to obey the laws of the country they are operating in.

Those who oppose this should consider the alternative. Suppose there's an app that is openly racist and discriminates against POCs, which is against the law in the US. Since it is violating the law, shouldn't it be taken down?

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